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Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

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Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:14 am
by Rich Hanson
I recall that a lot of early CDs used pre-emphasis and correctly set the pre-emphasis flag in the subcode, but many early players didn't implement the required de-emphasis, leading to overly bright playback of those discs.

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:39 pm
by John Willett
MOF wrote:A lot of people seem to like vinyl, but I think that's because of it's limitations/distortions, but that's what we're talking about, it's got a sound of its own. CDs have much greater fidelity.

I think it's also because the record companies have buggered up the CD by compressing the music into oblivion because of the "loudness wars". :madas: :madas: :madas:

You can only compress lightly with vinyl which means that you still get music.

If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:51 pm
by The Red Bladder
John Willett wrote:If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:
I have one customer that comes to me for a series of classical piano pieces about once a year and every time the label wants the thing LOUDER "We need at least another 10dB!" they insist!

I've tried arguing the point, but to no avail! The funny part is that they insist on 96kHz sample rate because they read somewhere that it is better!

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:53 pm
by Sam Spoons
Do they get their extra 10dB though? :headbang:

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:36 pm
by MOF
I think it's also because the record companies have buggered up the CD by compressing the music into oblivion because of the "loudness wars". :madas: :madas: :madas:

You can only compress lightly with vinyl which means that you still get music.

If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:

I don't know enough about vinyl mastering to comment, but if so then you have a point, I don't like the loudness wars either.

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:38 pm
by MOF
they insist on 96kHz sample rate because they read somewhere that it is better!

It is, at the recording/mixing stage, along with 24bit (though I think oversampling at 44.1/48khz helps there, but a gentler roll off slope at 96khz is preferable) but from what I've read I don't think there's any advantage at the distribution stage.

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:17 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
MOF wrote:... a gentler roll off slope at 96khz is preferable...

Just for clarity, the anti-alias and/or reconstruction filters in systems operating at 96kHz are exactly as steep as those in a 44.1 or 48kHz system. However, they start an octave higher up!

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:08 am
by MOF
Just for clarity, the anti-alias and/or reconstruction filters in systems operating at 96kHz are exactly as steep as those in a 44.1 or 48kHz system. However, they start an octave higher up!

Thanks Hugh, that’s what I meant.

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:41 pm
by John Willett
The Red Bladder wrote:
John Willett wrote:If you compressed the CD with a light touch the same way as vinyl, then the CD would be far far better. :thumbup:
I have one customer that comes to me for a series of classical piano pieces about once a year and every time the label wants the thing LOUDER "We need at least another 10dB!" they insist!

I've tried arguing the point, but to no avail! The funny part is that they insist on 96kHz sample rate because they read somewhere that it is better!

Madness for a classical piece - a reason NOT to purchase the CD.

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:46 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
The context is needed before this kind of statement can be judged.

There are and will always be cases where a degree of dynamic reduction is required to make the music acceptable for 'ordinary' domestic listening. This is probably especially true of live recordings, but applies to studio works too.

It is quite normal, and necessary to raise the quietest sections to be more easily audible to a casual listener, without the loudest bits then blowing the speakers off the shelf!

Raising the ppp sections by 10dB or so is not an unreasonable expectation or requirement in most cases, but it does obviously need to be done sympathetically...

H

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:31 pm
by ef37a
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The context is needed before this kind of statement can be judged.

There are and will always be cases where a degree of dynamic reduction is required to make the music acceptable for 'ordinary' domestic listening. This is probably especially true of live recordings, but applies to studio works too.

It is quite normal, and necessary to raise the quietest sections to be more easily audible to a casual listener, without the loudest bits then blowing the speakers off the shelf!

Raising the ppp sections by 10dB or so is not an unreasonable expectation or requirement in most cases, but it does obviously need to be done sympathetically...

H

Quite! The argument for distributing 24 bit recordings comes up from time to time. Such requests ignore the fact that the 90dB range of CD is already far too great for almost any domestic enviroment. A 'house' level of even 30dB SPL is enjoyed by very few I would say? (my place, dead of, reads 25-28dBC but I think that is about the noise limit of my cheapo meter) Stick 90dB on top and you need one hell of a hi fi system!

Dave

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:44 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
I think Sony/Philips decision to provide a 16-bit format with a 90-ish dB signal-noise range in the CD format is absolutely spot on... It's very sad that it's almost never been used sensibly. ... although there is still time... :lol:

Working with a nominal (average) level of -20dBFS -- as Sony originally intended -- still leaves the noise floor 70dB or so further down -- and probably 20-30dB below the quietest bits of music -- and thus the noise floor remains inaudible in all normal home setups, yet the system is still capable of a healthy 20dB headroom for the peak transients when required.

A slightly higher sampling rate would have been better and 60kHz would have been perfect for everyone's needs... but, sadly, the technology wasn't quite ready for that when they wanted to launch the format.

H

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:12 pm
by Arpangel
Hugh Robjohns wrote:It is quite normal, and necessary to raise the quietest sections to be more easily audible to a casual listener, without the loudest bits then blowing the speakers off the shelf H

You've played the Garage Door then..... :D

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:39 pm
by Folderol
Arpangel wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:It is quite normal, and necessary to raise the quietest sections to be more easily audible to a casual listener, without the loudest bits then blowing the speakers off the shelf H

You've played the Garage Door then..... :D
Haven't we all? :shh:

Re: Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:08 pm
by Martin Walker
ef37a wrote:Quite! The argument for distributing 24 bit recordings comes up from time to time. Such requests ignore the fact that the 90dB range of CD is already far too great for almost any domestic enviroment. A 'house' level of even 30dB SPL is enjoyed by very few I would say? (my place, dead of, reads 25-28dBC but I think that is about the noise limit of my cheapo meter) Stick 90dB on top and you need one hell of a hi fi system!

I quite agree Dave - I bought a load of CD albums from one French company some years ago, and they had an excellent reputation for sonic performance.

However, I rather went off them when they started releasing more expensive 24-bit digital downloads alongside the standard 16-bit versions. I simply find it difficult to believe that the vast majority of listeners would be able to hear any difference on already mastered output :headbang:


Martin