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The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby The Elf » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:44 pm

I'm constantly bemused by this idea of digital recording lacking 'warmth'. Record a source with 'warmth' to a decent digital system and you will hear that same 'warmth' on playback - whatever that term means to you. Digital recording simply captures, very precisely, what you give it - it doesn't remove something called 'warmth' before it records or replays it! :lol:
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby CS70 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:13 pm

Ariosto wrote:Personally It's digital every time for me. The only thing I miss is watching those large spools go round at 15 ips - very calming. But digital for my taste has all the warmth I want.

Buy the Waves J37 tape emulation and you're all set!

Sounds really good as well.
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby CS70 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:18 pm

The Elf wrote:I'm constantly bemused by this idea of digital recording lacking 'warmth'. Record a source with 'warmth' to a decent digital system and you will hear that same 'warmth' on playback - whatever that term means to you. Digital recording simply captures, very precisely, what you give it - it doesn't remove something called 'warmth' before it records or replays it! :lol:

Indeed. It always surprises me how so many people can pluck conclusions out of thin air without realizing what makes and opinion worth having.

If they go about the rest of their life the same way they go about audio recording.. no wonder the world goes the way it does :D
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:25 pm

Ariosto wrote:The only thing I miss is watching those large spools go round at 15 ips - very calming.

Not when the left-hand one is going round really quickly and there's still three pages of score to get through.... :ooo:

But digital for my taste has all the warmth I want.

If it's a warm sounding source, it comes back sounding warm from a digital recording.

I guess some people relied on tape to make the track sound warm, making up for a poor mic selection or a thin-sounding source.

H
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby The Elf » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:30 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:I guess some people relied on tape to make the track sound warm, making up for a poor mic selection or a thin-sounding source.
I could go along with that, if were not for the strong feeling I get that most of these folk seeking 'warmth' have never even stood in front of a tape machine, let alone recorded with one! :lol:
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Trevor Johnson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:45 pm

I could go along with that, if were not for the strong feeling I get that most of these folk seeking 'warmth' have never even stood in front of a tape machine, let alone recorded with one!

My Revox G36 has plenty of natural warmth from all those valve heaters!

Apparently, there is renewed interest in the rather esoteric end of Hi-Fi, for pre-recorded tapes. Labels like 'Chasing the Dragon', 'Opus 3', etc., offer pre-recorded tapes - but at prices for the former from £360 to £600 for each one. (The first thing I would do would be to transfer them to digital........)
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby James Perrett » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:03 pm

There's definitely something about hearing music from a big tape machine and listening to the big Otari often brings a smile to my face - but it is a smile of relief as much as anything, knowing that all the channel cards are working and it hasn't blown another set of fuses!
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:20 pm

:lol: ... And the relief that it's not making that horrible squealing noise that inicates the tape's lubricant is scraping off on the guides and heads! :shocked:
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Tim Gillett » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:02 am

Trevor Johnson wrote:
I could go along with that, if were not for the strong feeling I get that most of these folk seeking 'warmth' have never even stood in front of a tape machine, let alone recorded with one!

My Revox G36 has plenty of natural warmth from all those valve heaters!

Apparently, there is renewed interest in the rather esoteric end of Hi-Fi, for pre-recorded tapes. Labels like 'Chasing the Dragon', 'Opus 3', etc., offer pre-recorded tapes - but at prices for the former from £360 to £600 for each one. (The first thing I would do would be to transfer them to digital........)

I think an earlier producer of such pre recorded tapes was "tape project". It's an interesting phenomenon of people paying large sums for the privilege of adding an extra generation of tape noise and distortion to an existing master when for a pittance you could buy the CD or download and avoid those generation losses, which is what most people do.

Compare that to the other seeming trend of record companies going back to not just the 2 track mixdown tape for digital reissue, but further back to digitising the multitracks and remixing them for digital release.

The two trends perfectly cancel each other out! But what choice we have.
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby blinddrew » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:21 am

"What a fascinating modern age we live in."
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby ef37a » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:39 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
CS70 wrote:That makes little sense?

He's not saying it's more accurate... just 'more musical' (in his opinion).

There is quite a large body of lobbyists that abhors the whole idea of negative feedback and the positive 'corrective' control that NFB brings, claiming it to be 'unnatural' and preferring instead the uncontrolled and more coloured alternative of amplification without (or with very little) negative feedback. They believe such systems are potentially 'more dynamic' (and they could be because the transients overshoot!), and 'more musical' (because of harmonic distortions).

Interesting that the natural world, and indeed ourselves as humans, are both crammed full of thousands of simple and extremely complex negative feedback loops....

H

The 'anti-feedback' concept is also born of ignorance Hugh. 'They' prefer triode stages without overall feedback blissfully unaware that the way a triode works means that it has its own internal negative feedback!

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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Tim Gillett » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:41 am

blinddrew wrote:"What a fascinating modern age we live in."

True, unbelieveable choice in some areas of life and virtually none in others.
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:31 pm

ef37a wrote:'They' prefer triode stages without overall feedback blissfully unaware that the way a triode works means that it has its own internal negative feedback!

:silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent:

Don't tell them that! :shifty:
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby jimjazzdad » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:35 pm

Perhaps this thread should be re-titled "The insecurity of the digital listener". Allow me to preface my remarks by saying that I don't read audiophile publications, I don't buy esoteric cables and I do record digitally and mostly mix and master ITB. I also have reel-to-reel tape recorders in my studio and last night, for a lark, I transcribed the Naxos 2xHD (24/96) re-issue of Jazz At The Pawnshop 2 to tape. Its sounds wonderful - very, very close to the digital but different in a pleasing way. And, to be sure, there is the satisfaction of watching those big reels turning and the VU needles bouncing...someone (I forget who) explained the phenomena of the current vinyl craze among young listeners as "taking the sacrament": the ritual of opening the art-covered dust jacket, removing the holy disk and placing it on the platter and lowering the needle in an offering to the sound gods...well, maybe that's a bit rich, but you get the gist. Tape is without doubt the pinnacle of analogue reproduction and respect is due. Thinking of Gert Palmcrantz sitting on a beer crate in the kitchen of the Stampen club, changing reels on his Nagra IV machines while listening to an excellent tape of the fruit of his labours just seems way better than listening to JATP on Spotify. (But I'm sure Gert would have recorded the gig on a Nagra VI if the technology had been available).
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Re: The insecurity of small waveforms on your DAW

Postby Rich Hanson » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:21 pm

*Any* physical media is better than listening to it on Spotify :lol:
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