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Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby The Elf » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:48 am

I like the Sabra Som mounts, since they cannot spin around their hex bar. I bought the cheapest bar with four mounts, then a few lengths of 'non-audio' hex bar, which proved to be very ecomonical!

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http://www.transaudiogroup.com/products/sabra-som/st4/
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Moroccomoose » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:00 pm

I'm just looking at the Neumann gain tool, can comment if I'm setting it up and understanding correctly..

I am considering an SM57 going into a Profire 2626 interface.

The SM57 manual states a sensitivity of -54.5 dBV
The Profire manual states for the mic inputs 'Max Input Level + 6.5dBu' and gain is >53dB (let's say max 53dB)

From inputting these specs, the loudest sound at the capsule that I could record before digital clipping is 99.7dB SPL.
If I engage the 20 dB pad, I adjust the gain to be 33dB, resulting in -20.1dBFS signal in the DAW
Alternatively, turning the gain knob on the mic pre down to just over half way to achieve the same effect (ignoring pre amp colouration).

Cheers,

Stu.
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Aural Reject » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:09 pm

The Elf wrote:I like the Sabra Som mounts, since they cannot spin around their hex bar. I bought the cheapest bar with four mounts, then a few lengths of 'non-audio' hex bar, which proved to be very ecomonical!

Image
http://www.transaudiogroup.com/products/sabra-som/st4/

Did you formally import them Mr Elf?

I used to have an ST-2 that I think I sat on or something and broke....I originally got that one from Canford...but none of the UK distributors on the Sabra Som website carry them anymore?
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:42 pm

Moroccomoose wrote:The SM57 manual states a sensitivity of -54.5 dBV

The published specs here: https://www.shure.eu/products/microphones/sm57 ...state 1.6mv/Pa or -56dBV... but it's only a couple of decibels difference so won't affect the figures massively.

From inputting these specs, the loudest sound at the capsule that I could record before digital clipping is 99.7dB SPL.

Yes, or 101.1 dB SPL if you use the specs from the Shure website.

But that is with the preamp gain maxed out, of course.

I don't know what the minimum preamp gain is, but if it's 0dB (eg, 20dB minimum but with the pad engaged), then you could handle something approaching 152-154 dB SPL at the mic (depending which sensitivity figure you use).

Useful calculator tool, isn't it? :-D
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Moroccomoose » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:18 pm

:thumbup: Thanks, I'll look forward to testing this when everyone is out the house!
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:41 pm

The only slight fly in the ointment is that we don't know if the +6.5dBu limit is the clipping point of the preamp or the 0dBFS point of the converter... or both.

H
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby The Elf » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:27 pm

Aural Reject wrote:
The Elf wrote:I like the Sabra Som mounts, since they cannot spin around their hex bar. I bought the cheapest bar with four mounts, then a few lengths of 'non-audio' hex bar, which proved to be very ecomonical!
Did you formally import them Mr Elf?
Long time, back, so I don't recall. I can see suppliers on Amazon US, so I assume they'd send?
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Ramirez » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:32 pm

Arpangel wrote:Thanks for all the help, OK, so it’s not advisable to use them for ORTF

It’s not that you shouldn’t use the mics set up like that - it could be perfectly viable. Its just that it wouldn’t be called ORTF.

In other words, you can’t use anything other than cardioids and call it ORTF. C’est impossible.

But you can use different mics in exactly the same positions nonetheless.
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:27 am

I need a stand that enables me to have the stereo bar flat, not on its side, which happens if I use a standard boom arm, the bar is vertical, rather than horizontal, if you get what I mean, and sometimes it makes certain arrays difficult to align.
Hugh, I’d just like the option of using slightly wider bar, for our live recordings, or if our instrumentation changes in the future.
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Aural Reject » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:05 am

Arpangel wrote:I need a stand that enables me to have the stereo bar flat, not on its side, which happens if I use a standard boom arm, the bar is vertical, rather than horizontal, if you get what I mean, and sometimes it makes certain arrays difficult to align.
Hugh, I’d just like the option of using slightly wider bar, for our live recordings, or if our instrumentation changes in the future.

Widgets exist to get round things like this should it be absolutely necessary. For example:

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... tands/11UU
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:20 am

Arpangel wrote:I need a stand that enables me to have the stereo bar flat, not on its side, which happens if I use a standard boom arm...

There are plenty of mic stands without boom arms, and plenty of 'ball & socket' type knuckle adaptors if you must use a bar on a near-horizontal boom arm.

But actually, I can't think of a time when I've had a problem setting up a stereo array on a vertical stereo bar. You just need mic mounts that can hang the mic below the bar... I use Rycote InVisions a lot with my SDCs.

H
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:09 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:I need a stand that enables me to have the stereo bar flat, not on its side, which happens if I use a standard boom arm...

There are plenty of mic stands without boom arms, and plenty of 'ball & socket' type knuckle adaptors if you must use a bar on a near-horizontal boom arm.

But actually, I can't think of a time when I've had a problem setting up a stereo array on a vertical stereo bar. You just need mic mounts that can hang the mic below the bar... I use Rycote InVisions a lot with my SDCs.

H

These Schoeps CCM's have little adaptors, they are very fragile if you try and contort them too far, in fact, they aren’t ideal unless you use them in a very stable situation. You know the ones? The SGC clamps, they clip over the bit where the cable enters the mic. I’ve actually broke one and you have to be very careful.
The Rycote Invision series look good, I’ll just have to get a couple of those.
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby forumuser840717 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:48 pm

Arpangel wrote:These Schoeps CCM's have little adaptors, they are very fragile if you try and contort them too far, in fact, they aren’t ideal unless you use them in a very stable situation. You know the ones? The SGC clamps, they clip over the bit where the cable enters the mic. I’ve actually broke one and you have to be very careful.
The Rycote Invision series look good, I’ll just have to get a couple of those.

The original SGCs are quite easy to break as the plastic can be rather brittle especially as they age but the latest ones are made of a different, softer, plastic (maybe Hytrel) which is all but impossible to break in normal use (you could probably melt it but I've trodden on one with no ill effects).

For more gorilla-like handling, they do a metal version, the SGCM but they're comparatively expensive and for day to day use I'd say that the Rycote Invision mounts are better value and offer the useful bonus of very effective shock mounting which the SGC/Ms don't do. For me, the SGC/Ms only really come into use when I need a super low visual profile.
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Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:00 pm

forumuser840717 wrote:
Arpangel wrote:These Schoeps CCM's have little adaptors, they are very fragile if you try and contort them too far, in fact, they aren’t ideal unless you use them in a very stable situation. You know the ones? The SGC clamps, they clip over the bit where the cable enters the mic. I’ve actually broke one and you have to be very careful.
The Rycote Invision series look good, I’ll just have to get a couple of those.

The original SGCs are quite easy to break as the plastic can be rather brittle especially as they age but the latest ones are made of a different, softer, plastic (maybe Hytrel) which is all but impossible to break in normal use (you could probably melt it but I've trodden on one with no ill effects).

For more gorilla-like handling, they do a metal version, the SGCM but they're comparatively expensive and for day to day use I'd say that the Rycote Invision mounts are better value and offer the useful bonus of very effective shock mounting which the SGC/Ms don't do. For me, the SGC/Ms only really come into use when I need a super low visual profile.

I’ve always thought that those Rycote Mounts look ugly, but that’s not a problem in my application.
I’m going to have to jump on board this damn Rycote wagon, I need a blimp too, and I’m fully aware of you get what you pay for in this department.
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