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Live remote 'jamming'

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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby CS70 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:16 pm

DC-Choppah wrote:I agree with what others have said. The internet is simply not able to do real time transmission. Good quality comes at the expense of latency through the jitter buffers that reconstruct the audio after the packets have been lost or delayed. You can't have both quality and low latency. There is no sweet spot in the middle where they are both good.

Yeah, on a LAN it works because it's probably a "modern" switched ethernet or a simple one (everything on the same bus) but with only a couple of computers and very low traffic, so very little frame collisions. In that case, UDP will work very well for the same reasons you can go 250Km/h in an empty motorway in lockdown times: it's a straight line and empty, there's nothing to crash into.

The moment you introduce traffic and routing you can't get even remotely near these speeds.

The old modem PPP protocol between two modems over a switched telephone line (not tunneling into an IP network) might work better - at least to jam in two.. too bad nobody uses modems anymore and the quality would be probably still pretty bad.
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby DC-Choppah » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:47 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Still not going to work for jamming but this vid suggests a method of running online collaborations with decent sound quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmJUOkf0kE4&fbclid=IwAR0yS3tUJbA0kGDwpQSDXs6yW04NAuUSM9XrJX7teYMgwZkqC5hpEK1Q_vQ


Right. 100 msec latency and good audio quality (16 bit PCM). Perhaps that is the sweet spot.

Will probably generate glitches and dropouts in some network conditions, leading to the need for higher latency settings (500 msecs) - like in Voip phones.

You can't jam. But you can track one remote source. So then why not just set the latency higher (500 msecs)? There is really no reason to try to force the latency low if you just are recording one source to a cue mix. Latency is not important.

Folks on the other end still have to set up their recording equipment to track. But this approach to remote tracking could make it more like a recording session for the artist.


A better approach though to remote tracking might be to simply take remote control of the clients PC and tracking software? Audacity, and a small audio interface is all they need for a tracking session. If they can be instructed to set it up, we could just take control remotely.

I like the idea of remote tracking for musicians that are not technical. That would be very useful to me in these times.
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:16 pm

I'm in the process of setting up a recording session with my bass player (and best buddy) while we're both locked in. We don't write really so now seems a good time to start. For a start I've got him to download Reaper and set up a shared dropbox folder 'cos we both understand dropbox, I've just put a simple project in the dropbox to get things working. Will probably FaceTime on iPads for the comms side to start with.
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby blinddrew » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:43 pm

For remote tracking this is worth a read: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... production
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby jimjazzdad » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:28 pm

I am surprised that there is no mention of Ninjam, the Cockos jamming collaboration solution. No latency, as its based on everybody entering on a beat, essentially a click track, so its not actually real-time but everyone is playing in-time. I am not a musician, so I cannot comment on how easy it is to play that way, but the youtube videos make it look like fun and the audio quality is reasonable (Ogg vobis is the compression engine, I believe).
EDIT: I should mention that it is a Reaper plug-in...not sure if it works with other DAWs
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby DC-Choppah » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:48 pm

blinddrew wrote:For remote tracking this is worth a read: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... production

That's great, and gives the links to the free software needed. I like the remote control of the client DAW.

I am thinking of a package that could be easily shipped. Includes everything the client needs. Simple instructions. They set it up. We take control, and they just play music. Then repackage and send it along.

Please understand we deal with people who don't have the recording equipment at home or the funds, or know how to buy and set this stuff up. Yet, they can play their hearts out!
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:07 pm

They will still need recording hardware of some kind and a reasonable sounding space if using mics so a certain level of commitment from them will be necessary but that and the stuff in the vid I linked are certainly a huge improvement on what was available a few years ago.
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby awjoe » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:25 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:...and a reasonable sounding space if using mics...

^ This. I've heard a lot of really sketchy recordings since people starting communicating from home recently. I've heard it on CBC often enough to suspect that it's a sort of 'signature sound' intended to indicate that the speaker is operating out of their sitting room. No, scratch that. It's just CBC being incompetent. :D
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby ConcertinaChap » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:52 pm

jimjazzdad wrote:I am surprised that there is no mention of Ninjam, the Cockos jamming collaboration solution.

I had mentioned this. It's an interesting idea in that rather than trying to avoid or remove latency it seeks to use it in a creative way. What it cannot do is what everyone else wants to do which is play with others over the internet as if we were all in the same room.

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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby DC-Choppah » Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:32 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:They will still need recording hardware of some kind and a reasonable sounding space if using mics so a certain level of commitment from them will be necessary but that and the stuff in the vid I linked are certainly a huge improvement on what was available a few years ago.

I am thinking that we put everything in the package:
- Computer
- Audio interface
- Microphone
- Mic stand
- Cables
- Instruction card
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:37 pm

That sounds like it might have legs then, how would you fund the capital outlay on the gear, would you 'lease' it to the client or would they have to buy?
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby DC-Choppah » Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:53 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:That sounds like it might have legs then, how would you fund the capital outlay on the gear, would you 'lease' it to the client or would they have to buy?

They lease it. So it is part of the cost of the session for your remote studio. It brings in clients because you advertise that capability for them. You could build say 5 copies of the kit so you can have one kit out for a band all at once. Same as if they all came in to the studio together.

We ship it out and it has instructions and postage paid for the them to pack it up and ship it back to the the next client. They go to your site and print the shipping label when the time comes to return the kit.

I am finding lots of musicians and band leaders who want to record from home but just don't have the technical chops to do it.

The band/project would put up the remote studio fee which would include the lease cost for the kit.

We need a kit that is high quality and durable and easy to set up. It should start making money after its paid for through leasing cost and is not yet worn out. Durability is key.
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Re: Live remote 'jamming'

Postby forumuser932794 » Mon May 04, 2020 11:31 am

I am using JamKazam and it work fine. I had to fix a few issues inside my house (eg. I have high latency caused by a cloud backup service running in the background and I had an old 10/100 hub that I upgraded to a giga ethernet hub). It isn't perfect, but it is playable
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