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Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

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Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby DC-Choppah » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:59 pm

Will the changes to the network infrastructure introduced with 5G technology enable remote jamming?

Or does it still do packet switching with jitter buffers, and is still not designed for real time transmission?

I have seen much hype about 5G, but I wonder if real time transmission is part of what 5G is all about? Is anyone doing 5G that has remote jamming in mind as a goal?
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby blinddrew » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:54 pm

5G, when it comes (it really hasn't yet) is just faster wireless data. I doubt it's going to be any improvement on a good fibre line because it's still got to get onto a fibre network somewhere.
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:46 pm

DC-Choppah wrote:Will the changes to the network infrastructure introduced with 5G technology enable remote jamming?

Or does it still do packet switching with jitter buffers, and is still not designed for real time transmission?

I'd be very surprised if it made any difference. A good way to think of networks is to view them in layers. So you have a physical layer at the base. That's your wires and stuff and defines the voltages and such that pass over those wires. Above that you'll have a layer that defines how anything at all moves over the network. Ethernet would be a good example of that. It's not till you get to the layers above that that you encounter TCP/IP and UDP, i.e. the protocols that implement packet switching and which make the internet work.

You'll immediately see that 5G, like all the wireless networking technologies is down at the bottom two layers. What goes on above those is of no concern to 5G. Whatever it's asked to transmit, that's what it will transmit. If you want to get rid of packet switching you're going to have to replace the internet with something else.

If you're interested in how this all hangs together google the OSI seven layer model.

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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby DC-Choppah » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:59 pm

blinddrew wrote:5G, when it comes (it really hasn't yet) is just faster wireless data. I doubt it's going to be any improvement on a good fibre line because it's still got to get onto a fibre network somewhere.

So 5G is only about the wireless part then. With all wired connections, we still can't really jam over the internet anyway.
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby Agharta » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:30 pm

DC-Choppah wrote:So 5G is only about the wireless part then. With all wired connections, we still can't really jam over the internet anyway.

5G/4G/3G etc all relate to mobile data.
Gamers are fussy about latency also and they recommend using Broadband and also no WiFI so Ethernet from the router.
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby CS70 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:40 pm

In short, ultimately it could, but probably at a price and unlikely at first (imho). Now it's a while since I worked in telco, but 5G aerial links will have much lower latency than the current ones (down to 4-5ms in labs condition but likely much higher in real conditions), to which processing time has to be added of course.

And it can definitely achieve a very large stable throughput (in comparison to 4G).

Then it depends on what you are connecting and, as always with aerial links, the physical position with respect to the connecting tower. If the devices connected are on an IP network, you will have the same issues as for any IP network. But if the device connected are entirely in the 5G network and their physical position is favorable (not indoors, alas), you definitely start to have something.

5G is designed to have network slices dedicated to stuff like collision avoidance system, and you _definitely_ need reaction times in the millisecond order. How few milliseconds, it depends. An airbag deploys in the 50-60 milliseconds range, to say.

Mostly it'll depend on whether or not there's a market. I doubt that jamming will be the one, but there may be other markets which as a side effect enable very low latencies on the 5G network.
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby CS70 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:46 pm

Agharta wrote:
DC-Choppah wrote:So 5G is only about the wireless part then. With all wired connections, we still can't really jam over the internet anyway.

5G/4G/3G etc all relate to mobile data.
Gamers are fussy about latency also and they recommend using Broadband and also no WiFI so Ethernet from the router.

Wifi is a completely different ball game - the only thing it has in common with 5G is that it is an aerial wire. It's like comparing a horse and a car because both can bring you from A to B on a road.

A downside of 5G is that indoors reception isn't that great due to the use of mm waves, and for the same reason it requires a much higher tower density, which at least at start will not be so commonly available.
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:01 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote: the OSI seven layer model.

That reminded me of something from my first IT job:

"Princess Diana Needs To Slap Prince Andrew"

Simple but effective for remembering the necessary back in the day ;)
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby DC-Choppah » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:09 am

ConcertinaChap wrote:
DC-Choppah wrote:Will the changes to the network infrastructure introduced with 5G technology enable remote jamming?

Or does it still do packet switching with jitter buffers, and is still not designed for real time transmission?

I'd be very surprised if it made any difference. A good way to think of networks is to view them in layers. So you have a physical layer at the base. That's your wires and stuff and defines the voltages and such that pass over those wires. Above that you'll have a layer that defines how anything at all moves over the network. Ethernet would be a good example of that. It's not till you get to the layers above that that you encounter TCP/IP and UDP, i.e. the protocols that implement packet switching and which make the internet work.

You'll immediately see that 5G, like all the wireless networking technologies is down at the bottom two layers. What goes on above those is of no concern to 5G. Whatever it's asked to transmit, that's what it will transmit. If you want to get rid of packet switching you're going to have to replace the internet with something else.

If you're interested in how this all hangs together google the OSI seven layer model.

CC

Thanks for that. Very informative. I see what you mean with the OSI model.

So according to this description of the OSI model (https://www.networkworld.com/article/32 ... model.html), the packet switching and 'jitter buffers' that I can see are the problem for real time music, are in layers 3 and 4.

So none of that changes with 5G. 5G is just the short distance radio between two nodes, layer 2 and the node itself, layer 1.

It seems then what we need is a special router. The new router can transmit normal TCP/IP and work as a normal router, but also can do something else. I am just not sure what the something else is? I just know I want it to send and receive an audio signal to a very small number (5 guys in the band) of other fixed routers with minimum latency and good (CD) quality. Once set up, I don't need to go to the whole world. Just those 5 guys.

A special antenna on the roof is OK to communicate with the band mates. They have the special router too. Then the router converts the signal back to TCP/IP but this is only used locally. Does this exist?
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby James Perrett » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:27 am

DC-Choppah wrote:It seems then what we need is a special router. The new router can transmit normal TCP/IP and work as a normal router, but also can do something else. I am just not sure what the something else is? I just know I want it to send and receive an audio signal to a very small number (5 guys in the band) of other fixed routers with minimum latency and good (CD) quality. Once set up, I don't need to go to the whole world. Just those 5 guys.

It might be worth reading the article on networked audio from a couple of years ago. You are describing the way that most audio networking protocols work.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ethernet-audio
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:30 am

I've pondered this now and again and I think I can see how it could be done, but I don't think anyone's implemented it well enough yet. Maybe it's been tried but wasn't/isn't good enough to wow the world, I don't know.

If you had a number of people from different locations connected to a central server, then that server could keep track of the latency both to and from each participant. This would be an ongoing process (perhaps 5 to 10 times/sec) as latency can vary over time.

If each participant was sent the mix of the audio from all the other participants, delayed such that the audio was sync'd with the participant with the highest latency from them to the server, then each participant would hear the others playing 'at the same time' even if they weren't.

Each player then plays in time with what they are hearing. I think the upshot would be that everyone would percieve everyone else to be in time, or close to it, even if each person was actually at a different offset into the performance.

It's a rough idea I've put in simple terms and probably has some caveats I haven't considered, but something like it could be made to work I think.

There is a challenge with large changes in latency during the performance however, as adjusting the relative sync of one player while still streaming audio from them without it causing undesirable side effects to the others is a tough one, although I suspect not impossible. Perhaps some form of gentle realtime time stretching to compensate for the latency varaiations.

If someone was able to pull this off properly I suspect there's a good business in it.
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:28 am

For simplicity lets imagine three musos and a fixed latency of one ¼ note, one caveat I can envisage would be that player 'a' will be hearing player 'b' ¼ note later so will play his note ¼ note late, how will player 'c' will hear them in sync?
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:55 am

What you're imagining, Sam, is something like Ninjam, I think, only that adds latency so as to bring everyone into line on a barline, that is a bar behind the person who starts playing. So you're jamming along with what he/she played a bar ago while that person hears what you played a bar back too. That's if I understand it correctly because I find it a bit difficult to imagine. But basically they're not trying to avoid latency but make creative use of it. It does mean you have to define a time signature and BPM before you start.

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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:59 am

Just trying to get my head 'round it and it sounds impossible if communication is 'two (or more) way' if you and I tried it I'd hear you playing one bar late and could happily play along to the but if two way you'd be hearing me two bars behind what you are playing which would be chaos/cacophony surely?
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Re: Will 5G enable good quality remote jamming?

Postby jimjazzdad » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:05 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Just trying to get my head 'round it and it sounds impossible if communication is 'two (or more) way' if you and I tried it I'd hear you playing one bar late and could happily play along to the but if two way you'd be hearing me two bars behind what you are playing which would be chaos/cacophony surely?
Well, I'm not a musician, but I try to imagine it as a sort of 'Michael Row The Boat Ashore' multi-part jam session...
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