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The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby blinddrew » Sun May 24, 2020 8:17 pm

I did try Console 5 on three of my mixes but ended up removing it from all of them. I could hear a difference but to me it didn't add any magical space and separation, just additional mud (as if I'd stuck a saturation plugin on every channel funnily enough). It also seemed to make the lead vocal narrower in the mix.
I preferred the way Gullfoss enabled you to get that kind of additional separation and space but not enough to spend £150 on it (and it also did that vocal narrowing thing).
Perhaps my recordings are too muddy to begin with and it's just highlighting that fact, but I've never run anything through an analogue summing device of any kind so maybe I'm just expecting the wrong thing.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Sun May 24, 2020 8:42 pm

Yes - this is exactly the hardware 'analogue summing' experience Chris has attempted to mimic, and is exactly what I hear too, having spent a long time working with his Console plug-ins.
:thumbup: Fantastic, Martin, I remember you saying you were a big convert to Console 5 in another thread. Thanks for such a detailed reply, I will do my homework on your research tomorrow morning! (Something to get up for, for a change.)
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Mon May 25, 2020 11:35 am

Thanks for your article Martin, most interesting. Will do some C5 experiments today. I downloaded it a while back but, like you, could never get the 3D thing going and saw it simply as adding a bit of saturation mojo etc.

Question, though. I run a pretty weedy Mac and have to freeze (render to audio) a lot of tracks on even fairly small projects. Does C5 etc still work if you've frozen a track or does it rely on live interaction with the buss plugin?
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Mon May 25, 2020 11:37 am

so maybe I'm just expecting the wrong thing

Once you've heard it there's no going back! As I say, I've achieved a similar effect with a tape emulation but it doesn't always work.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby ManFromGlass » Mon May 25, 2020 1:13 pm

Sometimes I’m a little slow -
Martin a few questions
- Console 5 or 6 should be the last plugin on the Master bus?
- The plug works best when the track isn’t swimming in reverb?
- something like a jazz trio may not benefit as there may not be enough tracks for the plug to trigger?
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Mon May 25, 2020 1:37 pm

There are two parts to the plugin, the channel and the buss. They suggest you put the Channel plugin as the final plug on each channel, then the buss plugin is first on the stereo out.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Martin Walker » Mon May 25, 2020 7:53 pm

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:Question, though. I run a pretty weedy Mac and have to freeze (render to audio) a lot of tracks on even fairly small projects. Does C5 etc still work if you've frozen a track or does it rely on live interaction with the buss plugin?

You do need the interaction of channel and buss plug-ins, but you should be able to freeze your tracks without the Console Channel plug-ins in place, and then add them afterwards as the one and only plug-in on each channel, with the channel faders all at 0dB.


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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Martin Walker » Mon May 25, 2020 7:56 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:Sometimes I’m a little slow -
Martin a few questions
- Console 5 or 6 should be the last plugin on the Master bus?
- The plug works best when the track isn’t swimming in reverb?
- something like a jazz trio may not benefit as there may not be enough tracks for the plug to trigger?

1. Huge has already answered this correctly - console channel plug-in last on each channel, and the console buss plug-in first in the master channel.

2. Not necessarily, although since its aim is to provide extra detail you'll probably hear it more easily if your mix is swimming in reverb ;)

3. Exactly - I'd say a minimum of a dozen tracks to make it worth all the effort.


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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Mon May 25, 2020 8:01 pm

Martin, I think I'm confusing you with Logic terminology, sorry. In Logic a Freeze is a temporary rendering to audio which saves CPU. You can freeze pre plugins but it's normally the plugins that are using the CPU of course. So what I would have to do is fully render the tracks to audio using what Logic calls Bounce in Place then add the C5 plug on the audio produced.

But if all the C5 channel plug is doing is adding some additional signal, shouldn't this be incorporated into the 'frozen' track like any other effect ie if it's not actually 'talking' to the buss effect in some way? Rather like good old Dolby!

This is fairly trivial to test, actually, I'll have a play around tomorrow.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby blinddrew » Mon May 25, 2020 8:49 pm

Martin Walker wrote:
Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:Question, though. I run a pretty weedy Mac and have to freeze (render to audio) a lot of tracks on even fairly small projects. Does C5 etc still work if you've frozen a track or does it rely on live interaction with the buss plugin?

You do need the interaction of channel and buss plug-ins, but you should be able to freeze your tracks without the Console Channel plug-ins in place, and then add them afterwards as the one and only plug-in on each channel, with the channel faders all at 0dB.




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Hmmm. Maybe that's where i was going wrong.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Martin Walker » Mon May 25, 2020 11:17 pm

Hmm... On second thoughts, perhaps the console channel plug-in contributions COULD be frozen into the tracks.

I had it in my head that the magic is in the real-time interaction between channel and buss plug-ins, but of course this is what it's modeling, and in plug-in form you should be able to apply both processes separately with no change in results.

By the way, I'd still appreciate it if a few of you could have a listen to my audio demos and confirm that they can hear the improvements I can, just to prove my sanity (or lack thereof ;) )

Here's the link again: http://www.yewtreemagic.co.uk/soundworlds7.php


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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Folderol » Tue May 26, 2020 8:58 am

Tried this on a pair of Sennheiser HD 598SE phones coming off a KA6 and couldn't detect any difference :?
However it's quite possible that SC is screwing things up as they replay a 128k MP3 copy of whatever you actually post :(
The other factor of course is that I know I'm definitely losing the top end of my hearing :cry:
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Tue May 26, 2020 9:46 am

To me the difference is most noticeable on the Enya-esque vocals at the edges of the stereo field and on the central guitar. These all seem to inhabit their own space much more, especially in the C6 version. This is exactly what I was talking about in my OP.

For those that can't tune in on the difference, the Airwindows video I linked to is a good way to focus on what you're listening for perhaps as the difference on the mass voices demo is very noticeable, as Martin says.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby blinddrew » Tue May 26, 2020 9:59 am

I could hear it on your recordings Martin, and on the airwindows demo, but couldn't replicate it on my recordings. But I was freezing some tracks. I might give it one more go with a current project but this time I'll try freezing everything first then adding Console afterwards.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby CS70 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:09 am

Freezing tracks shouldn't make any difference? Whatever artifacts are introduced by the plugin will be frozen in the waveform exactly as any other effect. A frozen track is simply a sequence of samples as they result from the processing in the inserts bin.

What might make a difference however are changes in volume (i.e. the fader position) made after freezing, as they usually can be still made on a frozen track.

I have no idea on the algorithm but if there is a requirement that the channel faders are at zero, changing that for whatever reason might change the interaction with the final bus plugin on the main bus, in a way that the channel plugin (being disabled due to freezing) can no longer compensate for.
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