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Building a 70s system??

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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Eddy Deegan » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:44 am

Semi-related:

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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:08 am

That'll be 'silicon chunk' technology :D
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby uselessoldman » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:26 pm

For vinyl I still have my Revolver Rebel my parents bought me for my 21st. I run this through an my old Kenwood amp which used to feed into some old Keffs. They went years ago and I now feed the Kenwood into my Atmos amp and out to my Q Acoustic speakers. I am 55 now my ears are screwed and I've given up with perfection. I have found that my music, mainly punk and old school heavy metal is best through my stage speakers or amps and cabs not through any expensive Hi-Fi. Even Pink Floyd Roy Harper Rush and especially MOTORHEAD. Back in the good old days bands were better live than on record.

Volume matters more than clarity and many of the original recordings were crap anyway... so why bother trying to get something perfect that never was in the first place. In fact some of my old favorites are actually better in digital format, and I NEVER thought I would admit that
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Arpangel » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:22 pm

uselessoldman wrote:Volume matters more than clarity and many of the original recordings were crap anyway... so why bother trying to get something perfect that never was in the first place. In fact some of my old favorites are actually better in digital format, and I NEVER thought I would admit that

I don’t think you can have volume "and" clarity, it’s just not possible. I mean "real" volume, standing in front of a Metal band for instance. For a start my ears will be severely overloaded and compression will take place, that along with my 64yo hearing and we can forget anything to do with clarity.
Also, yes, as you say, a lot of old recordings were awful, I’m a big Gong fan, my god, some of their stuff I’m sure doesn’t have much above 8/10k, when their records were first produced, they still sounded like that, but that doesn’t, and has never, stopped me from enjoying them.
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby MOF » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:36 pm

I don’t think you can have volume "and" clarity
Yes you can, it’s the distortion at high volume that does more damage to hearing than listening at high levels to a clean system, obviously you don’t want to listen at very loud levels for a long time.
Clarity at high volume is achieved by leaving enough power headroom in the amplifier and once the speakers can’t cope with said output you have to add more of them to share that power e.g. speaker stacks and line arrays.
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Eddy Deegan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:47 pm

MOF wrote: it’s the distortion at high volume that does more damage to hearing than listening at high levels to a clean system

My understanding was always that it was exposure to high decibels that was the problem; I don't recall seeing anything quantifying the effect of distortion.

Can you cite a useful source? I'd be quite interested in reading more on that.
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:21 pm

Distortion certainly makes a speaker system sound louder than its actually is, and usually makes it unpleasant to listen to -- harsh is the word I'd use ;) And conversely, a very clean speaker system is often used at much louder SPLs than most listeners think...

But I'm not aware of any valid evidence that distortion actually damages hearing on its own. Noise exposure seems to be the thing -- absolute SPL integrated over time.
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby innerchord » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:31 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:... a very clean speaker system is often used at much louder SPLs than most listeners think...
That's the key to this. 'rough'-sounding systems being more fatiguing that clean ones.
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Eddy Deegan » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:42 am

If taken at face value the original statement ...

MOF wrote:it’s the distortion at high volume that does more damage to hearing than listening at high levels to a clean system

... would, I believe, have been incorrect hence my gentle probe to obtain clarification.

innerchord wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:... a very clean speaker system is often used at much louder SPLs than most listeners think...
That's the key to this. 'rough'-sounding systems being more fatiguing that clean ones.

I thought as much, so thank you both for clarifying that. It's a 'dangerous' subject insofar as it has potentially serious real-world consequences. It's a subtle difference, I know, but in this case I think accuracy matters!
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:09 am

Being loud enough to be exciting, is fine, but some bands I’ve seen have been dangerously loud. It’s something I’ve always been aware of, since I was very young, and that’s protecting my hearing.
I consider absurd volumes levels as being just plain stupid, and people should know better, it’s not cool, its not funny, it’s not necessary, and it’s positively harmful.
One of my local pubs when I lived in London was a Heavy Metal pub, it was just a pub to us, we didn’t specifically go there for the music.
One night, the band was so loud, my ears just shut down, and I had to leave the pub, all I could hear was compressed distortion, and my ears rang for days afterwards. Will someone please tell me what's good, or enjoyable about that?
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Re: Building a 70s system??

Postby MOF » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:17 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
MOF wrote: it’s the distortion at high volume that does more damage to hearing than listening at high levels to a clean system

My understanding was always that it was exposure to high decibels that was the problem; I don't recall seeing anything quantifying the effect of distortion.

I did say that listening at high volume for long periods of time is what does the damage, but it's the distorted part of the sound that is rich in harmonics and they cause the most vibration of the sensory hairs in the cochlea and eventually they break (if the three muscle connected bones in the middle ear can't do their limiting function anymore) and the energy goes on to the cochlea.
The hairs in the fluid filled cochlea are of different lengths and correspond to different (resonant) frequencies and in turn send a signal down the attached nerves, probably the long wave lengths of the bass frequencies means they don't actually vibrate as much for a given volume so much as just bend and spring back before the next wave at their wavelengths come along.
I was thinking back to my Biology A level here (many years ago) and it's partly supposition, I haven't done any research, but the fact that people predominantly lose their high frequency hearing first suggests I'm correct in this assumption.
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