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Does DSP have latency?

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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:56 pm

I guess I'm unusual in that I never use fx on my monitor feed, live or recording, I like to hear what I'm singing, warts and all. It works for me :D
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:05 am

DigDug wrote:With the DSP-less interface, how are you able to monitor with reverb without involving the entire mix?

Does your interface allow for a separate cue mix/headphone mix for the headphone out?

In any case, that is very good news. Now I just need to get an audio interface with DSP!

I simply place the hardware reverb between the interface headphones out and the headphones (or the headphone amp which I use to distribute the monitoring feed) :D

I use a Picoverb and it works perfectly as it has a mix control so I can control the amount of reverb, and an Aphex Headpod 4 if I want to monitor the same as the vocalist. Both units are small and portable (for the Picoverb, the power supply is bigger than the 'verb!).

You can also do it in the DAW but it's more convoluted: you set up a reverb bus, make a send from the track you're going to record set it to pre-fader, bring the track fader all down.. that will allow you to monitor the reverb on the DAW. There will be latency, but since it's a reverb, it's just an additional predelay.

But it's boring since in order to hear what you've done you have to bring the fader up, and then down again for another take.

I can recommend the UR28M - excellent preamps and the onboard DSP offers reverb (not-recordable) and a channel strip with compressor and EQ, in a neat small package. Or of course an Apollo Twin.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby DigDug » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:48 am

If you put reverb on the headphone out, doesn't that put reverb on the backing track as well?

I have a pretty low budget. I have my eyes set on the Steinberg UR24C that just came out a couple months ago. My main complaint with my last interface(UR22mkII) was the headphone out was too weak. Hopefully they changed that this time around.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:03 am

Oh, sorry - yes it does but it's not really a big deal usually, you just need a little reverb after all, and the backing track will just sound a little more.. backing. If that annoys you, an interface with onboard DSP is the way to go.

I have no experience of the UR24C but on paper it looks like a good piece of kit (32 bit converters, 192KHz, 102dB of dynamic range, the D-Pre which are very clean and transparent ) and the Rev-X reverb is the same (well the name at least) as the 28M and it does the job just fine. Actually it's a pity it cannot be recorded (in the 28M at least).

So if it's in your budget, it sounds like a winner.

As of the headphone out level, maybe a good idea is trying an interface out before buying it? Otherwise a little separate headphone amp like my headpod does the trick.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:06 am

Sam Spoons wrote:I guess I'm unusual in that I never use fx on my monitor feed, live or recording, I like to hear what I'm singing, warts and all. It works for me :D

You are a brave man!

I _love_ dollops of reverb when I sing :D
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby Music Wolf » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:10 am

CS70 wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:I guess I'm unusual in that I never use fx on my monitor feed, live or recording, I like to hear what I'm singing, warts and all. It works for me :D

You are a brave man!

I _love_ dollops of reverb when I sing :D

I used to but, whilst trying to sort out a pitching problem which I had experienced with a particular set of in-ears, I stopped using reverb in my monitor mix all together. I've no doubt that, if I were anything like a proper singer, then a bit of reverb would help with the performance but I just need to get close enough in order for pitch correction to stand a fighting chance :smirk:
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:23 pm

I've only ever had a couple of people in the studio ask for "comfort" reverb. It may just be that as folkies they're not aware of this offering or, like me, they do know but never felt the need for it themselves. It's trivially easy to set up on something like a UAD Apollo, though.

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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby James Perrett » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:28 pm

Comfort reverb is pretty much standard practice here - but I do record in a very dead room.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:48 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:I've only ever had a couple of people in the studio ask for "comfort" reverb

I'm sure - tough my experience is that vocalists not so used to recording have no idea what to ask for.

For example, the relative balance between the guide base and the vocal monitoring is critical for them to pitch right while keeping control of articulation and expression, but only experienced vocalists will actively tell you (or even know) if the vox in the headphones is in the sweet spot or not. Some will try to remove a headphone cup a little bit, some will proceed not hearing themselves and going totally off pitch, others will proceed with a guide base too low and their performance will suffer because few people like to feel like they're singing loud alone - so they will mumble and be insecure.

So you have to gently prod the information out, judge from the first take, and monitor yourself while they sing in order to figure out if and how to move the faders.

Same with reverb - only experienced singers will think to ask. But so long it's not hip hop or of course spoken voice, if you introduce a little reverb or delay while they are singing (with a guide track at the right level) you will suddenly see their face illuminate.

There are obviously exceptions, but I think VOX with reverb/delay is what what most people are trained to hear as a "proper" recording, aware of it or not..
A good recording room is by definition more dead than "regular" room, so even people who are used to sing with no amplification will likely appreciate a little subtle reverb.

That said, again - no inexperienced singer will complain or think they've missed anything - since often they just don't know of the possibility.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby DigDug » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:28 pm

CS70 wrote:As of the headphone out level, maybe a good idea is trying an interface out before buying it? Otherwise a little separate headphone amp like my headpod does the trick.

I'd love to do that but which retailers let you?
I only know of guitar center and that's if you have one close by to return in-store.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby CS70 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:42 pm

DigDug wrote:
CS70 wrote:As of the headphone out level, maybe a good idea is trying an interface out before buying it? Otherwise a little separate headphone amp like my headpod does the trick.

I'd love to do that but which retailers let you?
I only know of guitar center and that's if you have one close by to return in-store.

Ah, here shops tend to have the possibility, in terms of a dedicate studio space for the big ones, and a more "let's set up a computer with some material" for the small ones.

Doesn't hurt to ask..
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby Music Wolf » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:45 pm

DigDug wrote:
I have a pretty low budget. I have my eyes set on the Steinberg UR24C that just came out a couple months ago

Have you considered the older UR242?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/steinberg_ur242.htm

DigDug wrote:My main complaint with my last interface(UR22mkII) was the headphone out was too weak. Hopefully they changed that this time around.

I don't know the UR22 or the new UR24C but the headphone amps on my UR824 are more than capable of doing some damage to you hearing. What headphones / impedance are you using?
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby DigDug » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:54 pm

I have the Yamaha HPH-MT5w

sound pressure level: 100db/mW
Impedance: 51ohm at 1kHz
Max input power: 1600mW at 1kHz

I don't really know much about headphones, I just picked them cause they were white.
Is this decent?
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby Music Wolf » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:39 am

I'm not familiar with the Yamaha's DD but nothing in the spec alarms me.

I'll see if I can find the spec for the headphone amp on your Steinberg AI and see how it compares with mine. It just woories me when someone says that a headphone amp lacks power that they are monitoring at too high a level.
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Re: Does DSP have latency?

Postby tridelica » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:28 am

CS70 wrote:
DigDug wrote:Okay, great! Very informative!

What about analog mixers with built-in effects?
Isn't that DSP as well?

Is that suppose to be instantaneous or is there still some latency because it is DSP?

Same! But too short for humans to notice.

There's some latency for analogue as well actually - the speed of EM waves in copper is finite! But of course is too small to be noticed by our brains in normal conditions.. try to send an analogue signal to the moon however.. :) (well, first you have to get a cable up there, which is not as simple as it sounds..)

That's what I hate about observing the night sky. The latency is just ridiculous.
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