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DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:22 pm

Nyiregyhazi wrote:What specific data says it doesn't let mineral fibres through?

What specific data says it does?

What specific data says mineral wool spontaneously creates micro-particles?

I think it's fair to scrutinise whether this is more than a feeling....

Yes, it is... but you haven't shown any evidence, so it remains an unproven theory based upon your own concerns and little more.

I think we should at least recognise uncertainty....

Sure. And I think you've done that.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:38 pm

From Rockwool's FAQ's page :-

I’m worried about the fibres from ROCKWOOL products. Will these harm me if I breathe them in?
Once installed, ROCKWOOL products will not emit fibres or particles if the ROCKWOOL products are not further disturbed. Measurements taken within insulated buildings have shown that the levels of airborne mineral wool fibres are so low that they are not usually detectable. ROCKWOOL stone wool insulation fibres are bio-soluble which means they are harmlessly cleared by the body should they be inhaled or ingested.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:20 pm

Measuring fibre counts in a building, where the mineral wool is encased within internal walls, don't really apply to our acoustic applications, as has already been pointed out. But the bio-soluble aspect (which I highlighted for emphasis) is relevant to any concerns about the risk posed by whatever fibres do manage to break free.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:29 pm

One of the buildings they flag up on the first page of their website is the Royal Academy of Music where Rockwool has been used for acoustic treatment

The Royal Academy of Music has completely refurbished the 309-seat Susie Sainsbury Theatre and created the new 100-seat rooftop Angela Burgess Recital Hall. Alongside these impressive spaces, the Royal Academy of Music has also renovated 14 practice and dressing rooms, developed five new percussion studios, a large refurbished jazz room and a new control suite for its audio-visual recordings department.

I'm assuming any claim that it's use does not result in measurable quantities of fibres in the air will include tests done in that kind of building. If not then they are skating on very thin ice IMHO.

I have also seen rockwool recommended in it's raw form for lining baffles in studio air con systems, I'm assuming the acoustic consultants who suggest it will have done their homework.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:23 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Nyiregyhazi wrote:What specific data says it doesn't let mineral fibres through?

What specific data says it does?

What specific data says mineral wool spontaneously creates micro-particles?


In safety the norm is to err on the side of caution unless there is good reason not to. Feeling that fabric is probably a great barrier and that microparticles are probably not a factor isn't exactly built upon anything other than optimism. I'm not telling anyone to pop it in a skip at once, but I don't think unevidenced beliefs should be treated as a final word of assurance.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:29 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:From Rockwool's FAQ's page :-

I’m worried about the fibres from ROCKWOOL products. Will these harm me if I breathe them in?
Once installed, ROCKWOOL products will not emit fibres or particles if the ROCKWOOL products are not further disturbed. Measurements taken within insulated buildings have shown that the levels of airborne mineral wool fibres are so low that they are not usually detectable. ROCKWOOL stone wool insulation fibres are bio-soluble which means they are harmlessly cleared by the body should they be inhaled or ingested.

The thing I find interesting is that when it was declared safe, apparently they didn't have any of the toxic chemicals in the tested sample, which are actually added. It sounds a little conspiracy theory like maybe, but I find some of the concerns credible. Remember that asbestos was everywhere in the past. I don't believe rockwool is as dangerous, but prevalence doesn't prove absolute safety. I hope it's safe enough, but it's far from a comfortingly closed case.

Also, the above doesn't reference what happens after popping a big fan right beside the rockwool.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:01 pm

IMHO if there was the slightest evidence that RW was a risk the 'no win no fee' lawyers would be all over it like a rash and people building prestigious large buildings would not be using it. We live in very different times from the days when Asbestos was considered a 'wonder material' and having had a mate die from mesothelioma a couple of years ago (he was an industrial electrician from leaving school in the early '70's) I am aware of the potential risks.

I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree here. You've presented your case and, as Hugh says, others can make up their own minds. And at least we have kept the discussion polite, good job it wasn't politics :D
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:28 pm

Sure, my point is not to say anyone is definitely right or anyone is definitely wrong, but just to recognise the legitamacy and unresolved nature of possible concerns. In terms of the reflection issue I'd really like to see someone do plenty of real world testing, so whatever the truth is can be conclusively established. Regarding lawyers, if it did prove to be a timelag issue (as would be expected) then the lawyers would be all over it the moment their case was established. It took long enough before lawyers had a field day over smoking.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:35 pm

:thumbup:
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby cyrano.mac » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:32 am

Cling film is made for short term use with food.

I don't think it's long term stable, especially in any room that has windows, because of UV. I'd also expect it to turn anything into a fire hasard.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:02 am

Nyiregyhazi wrote:I don't think unevidenced beliefs should be treated as a final word of assurance.

I agree entirely.

But equally, I don't think panicky fears of doom with no evidence should be either.

On balance, the weight of considerable worldwide experience over many decades suggests to me that there isn't a problem in normal installed applications, and I am comfortable that any potential undefined risk is vanishingly small.

Your view is obviously different, and that's fine, because you have a workaround that makes you feel more comfortable, which is great. I'm sure sharing it here may be of help for others who share your concerns.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:39 pm

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/ar ... neral-wool

Here's the article in which they point out that it wasn't properly tested in the form sold. It being carcinogenic and improperly tested is enough to make it more than fearmongering. Especially when the way people use it for audio purposes might put them in especially close contact with it.

It's fair for people to think individually that it's probably safe enough on balance, but I wouldn't particularly wish to be sending a message that it's safe to any third party. I'd just let them know what we do and don't know, so they can decide for themselves.

BTW, I don't know exactly how sensitive clingfilm is to uv but I never allow direct sunlight in my piano room. I can't see a bit of indirect light filtered through fabric causing clingfilm to crumble in any hurry.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby cyrano.mac » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:39 pm

Maybe you should check your source?

The site you found that on, is registered by "DNE Holding AB". A Swedish holding that's composed of 74 companies. There's not much info about "DNE Holding AB", or what they do. Nor about the companies they own. None of those even seem to have a website.

They also registered a lot of interesting domains, like "Airbusassemblylineinmobile.biz". There's no website associated to that domain either.

Smells like a duck, knowing that they also seem to cater to a big tobacco group...
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:21 pm

https://londonlovesbusiness.com/eu-urge ... eral-wool/

https://youtu.be/auZHdhLuHG8

The story being reported nevertheless seems authentic, unless there's some remarkably big conspiracy going on. I'm not suspicious enough to check further whether the guy is genuinely part of the European Parliament, but you're welcome to dig deeper into the actual story, rather than just one website that reported it.
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Re: DIY acoustic panels with rockwool and a fan

Postby cyrano.mac » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:34 pm

Some REAL information about fibers here:

https://www.archbronconeumol.org/en-man ... 291200198X

Conclusion: we don't know all of the risks, especially long-term and with large doses. Additional research is needed. It's very far from asbestos and even natural fibers aren't harmless in large doses, or in special cases (like biological infections).

But it's not a risk for fibers that stay in place, like used for isolation in a building.

I'll have a look at the network behind these sites. I just stopped in Hong Kong when I discovered another part of that same group, targeted at public opinion in China. Naturally, that group was registered in the Cayman Islands...

All of their sites ('till now) run a script that tries to read the names of the tabs you have open atm. That's malware like. The script isn't detected by any of the AV scanners on VirusTotal.com. It also seems to change name, signature and code every now and then.
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