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oops!

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oops!

Postby ef37a » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:41 am

In both senses. A couple of weeks ago I was doing some (crude by SOS standards) voice recording tests with a variety of mic types including the Behringer XM8500.

Listening to them again some days later I poked the mono button..Whoosh! I all but vanished into a squeaky black hole! SOMETHING was the wrong polarity.

I have just repeated the tests starting with a Sontronics LDC (set to neg ten) and a Prodipe TT1 into my KA6. Fine, hitting mono just gives a slight change of tonality but almost no level drop.
Same rig for the Berry...Whoosh again. Made up an XLX polly flipping cable, That fixed the problem.

So now I should try to get this information to Behringer. I wonder how many of the mics in their range are OOP with standard products?

Just come to me... Has anyone had a similar problem with other brands of microphone?

Dave.
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Re: oops!

Postby Sam Inglis » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:52 am

There was a time when the conventions were different in the US and in Europe ('pin 3 hot' versus 'pin 2 hot') but that time has long passed, so if it happens today it's just sloppy manufacturing.

The only time I've come across it with mics was on a prototype, and the manufacturer was aware of it before they sent the mic out. I have discovered polarity issues with audio interfaces a couple of times, but again they were fixed before they went into production.
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Re: oops!

Postby ef37a » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:56 am

Sam Inglis wrote:There was a time when the conventions were different in the US and in Europe ('pin 3 hot' versus 'pin 2 hot') but that time has long passed, so if it happens today it's just sloppy manufacturing.

The only time I've come across it with mics was on a prototype, and the manufacturer was aware of it before they sent the mic out. I have discovered polarity issues with audio interfaces a couple of times, but again they were fixed before they went into production.
Thanks Sam. I have just been on a Behringer 'tech chat' box and sent my comments. Then they wanted my card details for a fiver!
Bugger that, I am trying to do THEM a favour!

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Re: oops!

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:37 pm

If you can be ar5ed the music tribe forums are the place to post, if only to warn other potential buyers.
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Re: oops!

Postby ef37a » Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:51 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:If you can be ar5ed the music tribe forums are the place to post, if only to warn other potential buyers.

Good point. I might first buy another one as a check, they are so cheap and they will end up in the garden most likely.

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Re: oops!

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:31 pm

Didn't Wonks have one when he did his budget mic tests?
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Re: oops!

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:07 pm

I've never come across it on a mic, but I discovered during testing/evaluation that the MartiAudio inline mic preamp (like FetHead et al) was wired reverse polarity.

Raised it with the manufacturer who said, "I know." :roll: That was a few years ago now... don't know if the current ones are the same.
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Re: oops!

Postby ef37a » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:17 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Didn't Wonks have one when he did his budget mic tests?

Wonks! Yes, thanks Sam could not remember who did those tests.

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Re: oops!

Postby Arpangel » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:35 am

Mike Stranks wrote:I've never come across it on a mic, but I discovered during testing/evaluation that the MartiAudio inline mic preamp (like FetHead et al) was wired reverse polarity.

Raised it with the manufacturer who said, "I know." :roll: That was a few years ago now... don't know if the current ones are the same.

There are a lot of people in the studio world that seem to think "it’s good enough for rock n roll" and studio engineers from a PA background seem to be the worst in my experience, maybe it’s because they just want things to work, being under pressure etc, they haven’t got time for subtleties.
Polarity is one thing, and this takes the Hobnob, a studio, no names mentioned, where an Eventide H3000 was wired up with bell wire, not even screened or balanced, it worked! that’s all they wanted.
We are the exception on this forum, and the real world is a completely different thing sometimes, and it’s not uncommon to get a puzzled look when you talk about things like polarity.

:crazy:
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Re: oops!

Postby ef37a » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:04 am

Arpangel wrote:
Mike Stranks wrote:I've never come across it on a mic, but I discovered during testing/evaluation that the MartiAudio inline mic preamp (like FetHead et al) was wired reverse polarity.

Raised it with the manufacturer who said, "I know." :roll: That was a few years ago now... don't know if the current ones are the same.

There are a lot of people in the studio world that seem to think "it’s good enough for rock n roll" and studio engineers from a PA background seem to be the worst in my experience, maybe it’s because they just want things to work, being under pressure etc, they haven’t got time for subtleties.
Polarity is one thing, and this takes the Hobnob, a studio, no names mentioned, where an Eventide H3000 was wired up with bell wire, not even screened or balanced, it worked! that’s all they wanted.
We are the exception on this forum, and the real world is a completely different thing sometimes, and it’s not uncommon to get a puzzled look when you talk about things like polarity.

:crazy:

If you mean the balanced XLR outs were wired in bell wire then that was probably not a big problem. So long as there were no strong electro-magnetic fields around. If it was the mains I would have walked out! It was not that long ago that 'outboard' gear was connected by screw terminals.

When I started my interest in audio it was common to wire mics at events with red/black twisted pair...UNscreened and this rarely gave a problem because the mics were 30 Ohms and balanced and fed transformers and valves. PMRs were only just coming in, mine was the size of a briefcase, full of valves and weighed a ton!

BTW...WHAT a lovely firm Eventide is! At least in the ease with which you can gain information. Site says "Downloads" and you are instantly given a choice of several including a service manual!

WHY can't they all be like that?

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Re: oops!

Postby Arpangel » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:24 am

ef37a wrote:If you mean the balanced XLR outs were wired in bell wire then that was probably not a big problem. So long as there were no strong electro-magnetic fields around. If it was the mains I would have walked out! It was not that long ago that 'outboard' gear was connected by screw terminals.

When I started my interest in audio it was common to wire mics at events with red/black twisted pair...UNscreened and this rarely gave a problem because the mics were 30 Ohms and balanced and fed transformers and valves. PMRs were only just coming in, mine was the size of a briefcase, full of valves and weighed a ton!

BTW...WHAT a lovely firm Eventide is! At least in the ease with which you can gain information. Site says "Downloads" and you are instantly given a choice of several including a service manual!

WHY can't they all be like that?

Dave.

Yes, I had an Eventide H910 with barrier strip connections, hate those things, especially if you’re making an installation using thin foil screened cables.
Eventide customer service is fine, never had any issues, although Moog at the moment seem to have left the building.
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Re: oops!

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:25 am

Until I started to understand what 'balanced ' was all about I was surprised/shocked to see an outfit I respected using 3-core mains cable for their mic cables when location recording. (45 years ago!)

But the recordings were fine... no deleterious effects. I've done it m'self once in extremis on location when there was no alternative save an aborted recording. Got away with it, but not to be done as a matter of routine.

For the avoidance of doubt: I am not advocating using 3-core mains in the place of 'proper' balanced cables. I'm simply saying it's not always a :o
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Re: oops!

Postby Arpangel » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:44 am

Mike Stranks wrote:Until I started to understand what 'balanced ' was all about I was surprised/shocked to see an outfit I respected using 3-core mains cable for their mic cables when location recording. (45 years ago!)

But the recordings were fine... no deleterious effects. I've done it m'self once in extremis on location when there was no alternative save an aborted recording. Got away with it, but not to be done as a matter of routine.

For the avoidance of doubt: I am not advocating using 3-core mains in the place of 'proper' balanced cables. I'm simply saying it's not always a :o

Maybe? If it’s a twisted 3 core mains cable, pin 1 may give a bit of screening due to it partially shielding the other cores when being twisted.

:think:
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Re: oops!

Postby ef37a » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:00 am

Arpangel wrote:
Mike Stranks wrote:Until I started to understand what 'balanced ' was all about I was surprised/shocked to see an outfit I respected using 3-core mains cable for their mic cables when location recording. (45 years ago!)

But the recordings were fine... no deleterious effects. I've done it m'self once in extremis on location when there was no alternative save an aborted recording. Got away with it, but not to be done as a matter of routine.

For the avoidance of doubt: I am not advocating using 3-core mains in the place of 'proper' balanced cables. I'm simply saying it's not always a :o

Maybe? If it’s a twisted 3 core mains cable, pin 1 may give a bit of screening due to it partially shielding the other cores when being twisted.

:think:

Maybe a bit but the screen on a signal cable only reduces electrostatic energies and RF, it is 'not there' for magnetic fields such as from transformers. Plus of course, those old valve input traffs were big, well made, expensive and had a massive common mode impedance.

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