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Patch bay woes.

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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby nathanscribe » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:11 pm

I've found patchbays invaluable, with a couple of dozen U of outboard and a racksynth or three... definitely had problems with bits of it in the past, which in the end were sorted with a rewire and some careful placement of certain things. I still get the odd hum that's sorted out by patching through one of the Orchid isolation boxes, but once you get into the swing of patchbays they're very handy things. I'm infinitely less professional than the other chaps so my only piece of advice is to set the patchbay up one device at a time, and test each one, so you can resolve any issues as you build it up.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:54 am

James Perrett wrote:It might be worth checking how flexible the cores are first though. Some of my other multicores have cores that are too stiff for patch cables.

My looms aren’t foil, so they are very flexible, I’ve just got to solder mono jacks on both ends, as they are balanced which is a pain. I could buy a new unbalanced multi core, that would save a lot of soldering and ruining a perfectly good balanced snake.

nathanscribe wrote:so my only piece of advice is to set the patchbay up one device at a time, and test each one, so you can resolve any issues as you build it up.

Good advice.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby ef37a » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:12 am

If re using jack leads, spin the shafts in a plastic pan scourer and then wipe with the merest trace of WD-40, that way they will remain tarnish free for months, possibly years.

Dave.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:27 am

ef37a wrote:If re using jack leads, spin the shafts in a plastic pan scourer and then wipe with the merest trace of WD-40, that way they will remain tarnish free for months, possibly years.

Dave.

Thanks Dave!

:thumbup:
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:32 am

ef37a wrote:If re using jack leads, spin the shafts in a plastic pan scourer and then wipe with the merest trace of WD-40, that way they will remain tarnish free for months, possibly years.

Dave.

Thanks Dave!

:thumbup:

Hugh, I just read one of you’re old posts about wiring patch bays, you say not to mix up balanced and unbalanced connections on the same bay?

:think:
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby ef37a » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:52 am

Arpangel wrote:
ef37a wrote:If re using jack leads, spin the shafts in a plastic pan scourer and then wipe with the merest trace of WD-40, that way they will remain tarnish free for months, possibly years.

Dave.

Thanks Dave!

:thumbup:

Hugh, I just read one of you’re old posts about wiring patch bays, you say not to mix up balanced and unbalanced connections on the same bay?

:think:

Amen to that! And that is why I would transformer balance and earth lift everything not so equipped. Neg ten stuff can use 3quid traffs, reserve 10 quid jobs for higher levels.

IMO, do it once, do it right.

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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:15 pm

Arpangel wrote:Hugh, I just read one of you’re old posts about wiring patch bays, you say not to mix up balanced and unbalanced connections on the same bay?

As a general rule of professional studios, yes, absolutely! Mixing up the two usually leads to a large can of ground (loop) worms!

But that's not to say it can't work if thought about and used with care. Using pseudo-balanced cabling between instrument and patchbay usually works well. And with more and more keyboards / electronic instruments having class-2 (ungrounded) power supplies the problems are fewer than they once were... But they haven't gone away completely.

If you're just using a patchbay to route different keyboards into an interface or mixer, there won't be too many problems. But if you're patching via effects pedals, (especially mains-powered pedals) then the grounding arrangements start to become problematical again.

Pro studios use balanced connections for a reason, and it's far more to do with not needing to pass ground references with the wanted audio than interference suppression!
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:25 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:Hugh, I just read one of you’re old posts about wiring patch bays, you say not to mix up balanced and unbalanced connections on the same bay?

As a general rule of professional studios, yes, absolutely! Mixing up the two usually leads to a large can of ground (loop) worms!

But that's not to say it can't work if thought about and used with care. Using pseudo-balanced cabling between instrument and patchbay usually works well. And with more and more keyboards / electronic instruments having class-2 (ungrounded) power supplies the problems are fewer than they once were... But they haven't gone away completely.

If you're just using a patchbay to route different keyboards into an interface or mixer, there won't be too many problems. But if you're patching via effects pedals, (especially mains-powered pedals) then the grounding arrangements start to become problematical again.

Pro studios use balanced connections for a reason, and it's far more to do with not needing to pass ground references with the wanted audio than interference suppression!

Thanks Hugh, I’m going to rewire the bays, synth cables I’ll make pseudo balanced, pin 3 to ground and the synth end, if I’m correct? same with the pedals, they are powered from a multi output MXR Iso Brick.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:30 am

After much thought, and trouble, I’ve decided to go back to using just my mixer.
I’m not going to dismiss the patch bays I’ll set them up in a little rig somewhere and try and figure it out slowly.
It’s just not conducive to anything for me, I’ve made no music, just seems to be one issue after another. I have such a mixture of balanced and unbalanced sources/destinations, it’s a nightmare, what cable do I use in a particular section of the signal flow, I’m having to use a mixture of balanced and unbalanced patch cables, and remember to do this, plus all the extra wiring, like, I need to solder at least another 70 jack plugs, this is just not worth it for me, I understand a mixer and like the workflow, and TBH, if space wasn’t an issue I’d have the biggest mixer I could fit in, the interface/PB was primarily to save space, but it’s too much of a price to pay regarding how I like to work.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby ManFromGlass » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:24 pm

Due to this and similar threads I’ve integrated a patchbay just before my small mixer. I’ve had to sit down with paper and pencil to sketch it all out plus alternatives and it is working really well for me.
I’m not even considering balanced/unbalanced connections and so far I’m not hearing any excessive noise, except on some extreme distortion patches when used with guitar.
I’m about to add a Lexicon MPX 1 to the mix so we will see if that causes any noise trouble. Although I do have balanced cables made up for it.
This patchbay integration offers great flexibility although I must admit I am really loving running signal through everything full blast all at once for now.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby ef37a » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:35 pm

Arpangel wrote:After much thought, and trouble, I’ve decided to go back to using just my mixer.
I’m not going to dismiss the patch bays I’ll set them up in a little rig somewhere and try and figure it out slowly.
It’s just not conducive to anything for me, I’ve made no music, just seems to be one issue after another. I have such a mixture of balanced and unbalanced sources/destinations, it’s a nightmare, what cable do I use in a particular section of the signal flow, I’m having to use a mixture of balanced and unbalanced patch cables, and remember to do this, plus all the extra wiring, like, I need to solder at least another 70 jack plugs, this is just not worth it for me, I understand a mixer and like the workflow, and TBH, if space wasn’t an issue I’d have the biggest mixer I could fit in, the interface/PB was primarily to save space, but it’s too much of a price to pay regarding how I like to work.

You can get more I/0 and function in a smaller space now with these very clever dig......Oh!

Dave.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby blinddrew » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:46 pm

ef37a wrote:
Arpangel wrote:After much thought, and trouble, I’ve decided to go back to using just my mixer.
I’m not going to dismiss the patch bays I’ll set them up in a little rig somewhere and try and figure it out slowly.
It’s just not conducive to anything for me, I’ve made no music, just seems to be one issue after another. I have such a mixture of balanced and unbalanced sources/destinations, it’s a nightmare, what cable do I use in a particular section of the signal flow, I’m having to use a mixture of balanced and unbalanced patch cables, and remember to do this, plus all the extra wiring, like, I need to solder at least another 70 jack plugs, this is just not worth it for me, I understand a mixer and like the workflow, and TBH, if space wasn’t an issue I’d have the biggest mixer I could fit in, the interface/PB was primarily to save space, but it’s too much of a price to pay regarding how I like to work.

You can get more I/0 and function in a smaller space now with these very clever dig......Oh!

Dave.
:bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:48 am

ef37a wrote:You can get more I/0 and function in a smaller space now with these very clever dig......Oh!

Dave.

I’m seriously thinking about a digital mixer, I’m fed up with all this faffing about, if it doesn’t work out fine, I’ve got all my options here still so it’s not a problem.
The reason, among many, I haven’t gone down that route so far, is that I do have a lot of old and loved outboard, that I still use, plus some unique pedals that can’t be got rid of either, and they all need to be patched. A digital mixer will have a lot of effects, and the ability to have different effects on different channels would be amazing, if that’s possible.
But, a I won’t really absolutely need all of my hardware, if the effects in the mixer are any good, it could replace a lot of stuff, if I keep it all, I’m still faced with interfacing it into the system.
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:20 am

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :wave: :D
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Re: Patch bay woes.

Postby Arpangel » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:22 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote::crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :wave: :D

You’ve excelled yourself there Hugh, you’ve actually gone off the edge of my i Pad!

:shocked:
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