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High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

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High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:37 pm
by robertkjr3d
I'm hearing some sort of high-pitched, around 12Khz sound in the speakers and in the recordings from my 'Zoom-R16'. At first I was trying to blame everything else... Than come to find out after unplugging the USB-Cable that routes to my computer, the sound goes away.

I don't want to be stuck just using the SD-Card on the 'R16'. My desktop-computer and where the 'R16' are wired-up is in two different rooms.

I'm using this USB-over-Cat6 extender:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08CZ925XB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I've not had any problems with this extender before this incident. We use it for connecting Joysticks and playing other video-games and stuff.

What I'm really asking here is: I have 6 (1/4th) cables connected to my 'R16'...
They are all unbalanced :( . If they were converted to balanced, would that correct the issue? maybe.. Trying another Extender... is a also maybe?

Oddly, its not a ground-loop sound of 60hz humm. Its some electrical noise... Any thoughts...

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:40 pm
by James Perrett
What speakers are you using? Are they grounded? Do you hear the sound with nothing connected to the Zoom apart from the USB and a pair of headphones? It might help if you could draw a diagram of exactly what you have connected and what sort of cables you are using to connect them. It is almost certainly some kind of grounding problem but it could be a lack of ground rather than a ground loop.

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:09 pm
by robertkjr3d
James Perrett wrote:What speakers are you using? Are they grounded?.
Its Onkyo tx-nr686 connected with Klipsch speakers... Grounded? I'm not sure what that means in this case, except that the Onkyo and the powered Sub-Woofer are plugged into 'Grounded' circuits.

As I said the sound goes away as soon as I unplug the USB cord. I can even make recordings with the Zoom without the USB. Without the high-pitch sound onto the SD-Card.

The diagram will possibly make you flip....

Here is a one-Channel diagram, but keep in mind there is 5-like this. and a 6th channel if you include the sub-channel that also comes through.

Imagehttps:*?*?*/47TRPMM
It uses a 'Russound ADP 1.2'. To convert speaker-line output to RCA that is connected into the 'Zoom-R16'.

'Left', 'Right', 'Center', 'Sub', 'Rear-Left', 'Rear-Right'. 5.1CH Sound.

My current recordings using my built panel-box are starting to be decent. However, when using the computer with a DAW, I was getting the 'high-pitch' sound. I can edit it out.

Another issue I haven't been able to solve is... But may be totally unrelated is: I'm getting an unacceptable amount of pops and clicks.

Edit: I keep trying to post image. and it keeps failing. I've tried different methods. Here i'm trying just an url.

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:29 pm
by James Perrett
What happens if you disconnect the R-16 from the receiver and listen through headphones plugged into the R-16? Do you hear any noises with the USB connected?

Are you trying to record the outputs from the Onkyo receiver?

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:32 pm
by robertkjr3d
James Perrett wrote:What happens if you disconnect the R-16 from the receiver and listen through headphones plugged into the R-16? Do you hear any noises with the USB connected??
Actually, if you looked at the diagram of my box I've built. In 'Record' mode, no 'speakers' are connected at all. But the 'high-pitch' sound shows up in the recording. I'm not using the outputs on the 'R16', if thats what your referring to. Its just being used for recording.

James Perrett wrote:Are you trying to record the outputs from the Onkyo receiver?
Yes that's it exactly. That is the purpose of the box, for multi-channel recording. 1) routed to my regular speakers.... 2) switched to routing into the 'Zoom-R16'.

I can also produce the issue this way too:
1) I switch the hdmi on the onkyo receiver to 'my Roku' (not my computer). But play nothing. It is silent.
2) my box is still set to send the audio to the speakers (not the Zoom-R16). So Zoom-R16 interconnects are in theory connected to nothing. There is a Pos switch and a Neg Switch. When that side is switched off, there should be no cross-talk. (in theory)
3) I connect Zoom-R16 to the USB-Extender that connects to my Desktop Computer.
a) I still hear nothing.
4) But then I start Cubase-LE
a) Boom the sound starts in the speakers. I must be getting cross-talk. Somehow! On #2.
b) the speakers are not connected to the Zoom (again in theory... here)

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:40 pm
by Mike Stranks
robertkjr3d wrote:Edit: I keep trying to post image. and it keeps failing. I've tried different methods. Here i'm trying just an url.

This little video may help: https://youtu.be/s7vVDGTOHW0

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:23 pm
by Sam Spoons
Hopefully you'll manage to get the diagram you mention posted (but a link will work fine to the actual image). Either way a detailed explanation of the setup, it's purpose and the gear in use would help. There may be other ways of achieving the same result.

FWIW you are recording 5.1 surround sound? What is the context/reason for this? Is it in a domestic application, a church/venue or what?

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:27 pm
by robertkjr3d
That link is posted. (see Post 2) It works... tested in non-logged in browsers. (the posts are a bit out of order, because of posting approvals)
I'm not sure I understand the dilema on that one. I believe I realized the img--link issue was I should have used the BBCode link. But by that time, I couldn't edit it again.

Purpose of my Box?: Simple... I've built a box to collect multi-channel recordings. Normally I've been using Blu-Rays. But in 2021, I've been finding a way to collect from streaming sources.
You can find-'capture' cards that might claim to work, but then you have to worry about HDCP issues. Then they are also very expensive, for the ones that may work in multi-channel, and may not be very good quality. So how to solve:

Capture the speaker-line level output, and convert to line-level. For each-channel.
This solution uses 'Russound-ADP-1.2'. Then record with the 'Zoom-R16'.

My best test recording. Is still not acceptable. But does still give me the gooses. It is recorded with very-high fidelity and matching of the original source quality. I've been testing with 'Star Trek: First Contact' opening theme.

Problems:
1) 'When using the computer with Cubase'... I need to edit out the 12hz noise. super faint.
2) I'm getting an unacceptable amount of pops and clicks. There really is no acceptable amount. Maybe one click in 5mins. Or an entire recording...
a) I get the pops and clicks when recording with the SD-Card.... too
b) of course the SD-Card is limited to 44,100. No high-pitch happens though.
3) I was just talking to the 'Russound' manufacturers. It seems that they may be built crossing the 'Negative' wires for the two sides. Sometimes referred to as a 'Common Ground'. That pollutes the quality. The onkyo is not a 'common-ground' receiver. If this is true: I'll just buy two more of them. and only use one side on each.

There may be another possible reason for high-pitch-crosstalk...
The computer would not engage the driver for the R16, until Cubase starts. Then it may try to send something down back to the Onkyo... but but... we are only talking electrics here and not sound. Yes it is connected with a HDMI cable. But the onkyo, hadn't even selected to be using it.

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:48 pm
by Sam Spoons
The pic only shows a single channel coming out of the receiver to the box? I can't understand what the switches are doing, I'm guessing selecting Left +ve or -ve to the 'normal speakers' with the other to the Zoom but I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve?

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:11 am
by robertkjr3d
Sam Spoons wrote:The pic only shows a single channel coming out of the receiver to the box?
I did not want to show an exhaustive duplicative diagram. This is just a simple diagram of the Left-channels-path.
The other 4-channels have exactly the same path... (Right, Center, Rear-Left, Rear-Right)
The sub-woofer is also switched, but already comes in 'line-level' and does not to go through a 'Russound'. This image was in-progress, before some plastic around some wires and stuff: Image

Sam Spoons wrote:I can't understand what the switches are doing,
There are actually 12-switches in total. The original design had 6. I would really rather have just 1. Because when I use the switches on the box. I switch all of them one way or the other. They are on-on 3-wire switches. The path goes one way or the other. Since I'm hijacking my Onkyo speaker outputs. The normal setting for the switches is to allow the path to go straight to the speakers. The other 'On' side is 'record' mode. In which you turn off the 'speakers', then the audio is sent through the 'russound' devices.

Sam Spoons wrote:I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve?
hmm... well understanding isn't really required. I tried to say, I keep multichannel recordings. I mentioned the opening theme to 'Star Trek First Contact'.

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:15 am
by blinddrew
Just to be clear, we're not mixing speaker level and line level signals here are we?

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:25 am
by Sam Spoons
robertkjr3d wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:The pic only shows a single channel coming out of the receiver to the box?
I did not want to show an exhaustive duplicative diagram. This is just a simple diagram of the Left-channels-path.
The other 4-channels have exactly the same path... (Right, Center, Rear-Left, Rear-Right)
The sub-woofer is also switched, but already comes in 'line-level' and does not to go through a 'Russound'. This image was in-progress, before some plastic around some wires and stuff: Image

Sam Spoons wrote:I can't understand what the switches are doing,
There are actually 12-switches in total. The original design had 6. I would really rather have just 1. Because when I use the switches on the box. I switch all of them one way or the other. They are on-on 3-wire switches. The path goes one way or the other. Since I'm hijacking my Onkyo speaker outputs. The normal setting for the switches is to allow the path to go straight to the speakers. The other 'On' side is 'record' mode. In which you turn off the 'speakers', then the audio is sent through the 'russound' devices.

Ok I get the speaker/switch wiring now, thanks.

Sam Spoons wrote:I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve?
hmm... well understanding isn't really required. I tried to say, I keep multichannel recordings. I mentioned the opening theme to 'Star Trek First Contact'.

Sorry but without understanding your purpose how can we offer useful advice?

But, if you just want to get 5.1 soundtracks into a computer there must be much easier ways than this? A quick google of "ripping 5.1 DVD soundtracks?" threw up several pages of software solutions (disclaimer - legality possibly dubious)

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:29 am
by robertkjr3d
blinddrew wrote:Just to be clear, we're not mixing speaker level and line level signals here are we?
I'm using this apapter:
https://www.russound.com/products/audio-systems/multi-room-controllers/expansion-devices/adp-1-2-speaker-to-line-level-adapter
On each of the 5-channels that come in 'speaker-level'.

However (and likely totally unrelated to the high-pitch sound, or clicks and pops)...
the left & right channels are paired... on a Russound
the Rear-Left & Rear-Right are paired...
And I've heard word that it may be mixing the 'negative' channel. (Like a common-ground) That will have an impact on sound-quality, because the receiver is not-common-ground.

Note: The 'Center-Channel' is connected to just one-side of a 'Russound' by itself.

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:32 am
by robertkjr3d
Sam Spoons wrote:But, if you just want to get 5.1 soundtracks into a computer there must be much easier ways than this? A quick google of "ripping 5.1 DVD soundtracks?" threw up several pages of software solutions
Taking multichannel audio from a DVD or Bluray is childsplay compared to getting multi-channel audio from a 'Streaming-Source'. Google that... these recordings are for me. I don't send them out.

Re: High-Pitched sound in recordings and speakers with a Zoom-R16 when connected USB-Ethernet

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:26 am
by Sam Spoons
robertkjr3d wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:But, if you just want to get 5.1 soundtracks into a computer there must be much easier ways than this? A quick google of "ripping 5.1 DVD soundtracks?" threw up several pages of software solutions
Taking multichannel audio from a DVD or Bluray is childsplay compared to getting multi-channel audio from a 'Streaming-Source'. Google that... these recordings are for me. I don't send them out.

Ah, yes, understood. I still think a software solution would be less difficult to achieve and there are apps that will allow you to download or record streamed video from which you could then extract the soundtracks. But that's not the question you came to ask so...

Some kind of transformer isolator would be the next step. Something like these would probably get the job done https://www.amazon.co.uk/10pcs-600-Isolation-Transformer-Transformers/dp/B07TLJV3WP/ref=sr_1_10?adgrpid=67139725321&dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIouSd7M7h7gIV0d_tCh3IEwy9EAAYASAAEgKDl_D_BwE&hvadid=318138422141&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=2826&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=b&hvrand=4461534903128721514&hvtargid=kwd-303307603423&hydadcr=5088_1827856&keywords=audio+isolation+transformer&qid=1613039091&sr=8-10&tag=googhydr-21