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Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

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Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:51 am
by DigitalMusicProduction
Hi

I'm sure this question is self explanatory, but just to be sure,

Would it be correct to say regardless of an audio signals input recording volume level, the final volume outcome of any track will be rendered at what ever volume levels are set at the final stage just befoe bouncing?

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:08 pm
by blinddrew
Yes. The output will be a result of the input level plus any gain, compression, expansion, eq or other processing applied to the track and any buss it feeds into (including the master buss).

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:03 am
by DigitalMusicProduction
At this stage just before bouncing when bringing up the loudness volume meter in logic, should i be looking to target each tracks volume level at -14LUFS average? And -1dBFS peak, Thus to comply with the required online streaming volume levels?

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:45 am
by Luke W
No, your loudness measurement should be done across the final output. It's the summing of your individual tracks that adds up to your final level, so how they measure on their own isn't really relevant, and trying to get them to hit particular figures won't be helpful or necessary.

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:54 pm
by blinddrew
Woah, just to avoid any further confusion, what do we mean "track" here?
If we're talking about individual audio/midi elements that make up a song, then yes Luke is correct; it's the total that matters not the composite parts.
But if by 'track' you mean 'song on an album' then each individual song is the unit that will be measured by the streaming service.
Isn't the English language fun? ;)

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:43 pm
by Luke W
Ah, yes, I probably should have checked that...

Don't mind me. :lol:

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:32 pm
by DigitalMusicProduction
Little confused about that response, what exactly is being explained here? Example there will b a 11 track album, therefore at the end of recording and mastering each track separately, should i then be measuring the volume of that track with the loudness meter just befor bouncing?

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:35 pm
by CS70
DigitalMusicProduction wrote:Little confused about that response, what exactly is being explained here? Example there will b a 11 track album, therefore at the end of recording and mastering each track separately, should i then be measuring the volume of that track with the loudness meter just befor bouncing?

I think it's more a matter of what exactly is being asked here :lol:

What are you concerned about? Forget loudness etc, just what you are worried about. Maybe loudness has got something to do with it, maybe not.

After mastering, you're done, you shouldn't be measuring anything. The gift is wrapped, the paint applied, the box is sealed etc etc (pick the analogy you like best)

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:58 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
DigitalMusicProduction wrote:At this stage just before bouncing when bringing up the loudness volume meter in logic, should i be looking to target each tracks volume level at -14LUFS average? And -1dBFS peak, Thus to comply with the required online streaming volume levels?

Assuming you're using the term 'track' to mean a complete, finished, recorded piece of music, then yes. Adjust the overall volume of that complete 'track' to be -14LUFS.

You don't need to do anything about the true peak level, other than make sure it is below -1dBTP. If it's -2 or -6dBTP or anything below -1dBTP it's fine and you can ignore the number.

If it's higher than -1dBTP (like 0 or +2dBTP) then you'll need either to compromise your Integrated loudness a little and pull the overall level back down a bit or, more sensibly, use a good limiter to reign in the transient peaks by a few dB.

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:10 pm
by Frank Rideau
Thanks to Hugh, he got the discussion back on track.

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:13 pm
by desmond
In case the OP is confused, the word "track" can mean different things, and which was meant in this case was not obvious from the context, hence the confusion:-

- track (as is in a CD track) - a single song/mix or an album or collection of songs

- track (as in multitrack recording) - a single part of a multitrack recording, eg the track with the bassline recorded on it, or the track with the singer's vocal recording, all of these tracks which get mixed together to form the overall mix of the song.

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:02 pm
by DigitalMusicProduction
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Assuming you're using the term 'track' to mean a complete, finished, recorded piece of music, then yes. Adjust the overall volume of that complete 'track' to be -14LUFS.

That entirely answers the question.

Out of interest is there a comparison between dBFS and LUFS ? Example what would -18dBFS equivalate to in -LUFS ?

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:29 pm
by CS70
The same relationship that there is between the salary you get every month and the money you have in the bank at the end of the year. If you get lots every month, there's chances that your bank account will be fat at the end of the year. But it also depends on how much you spend!

LUFS is an integrated measure (over time), calculated over the totality of the song via the appropriate algorithm. Very roughly Integrated means that it's summed up - in our case over time. Whereas "decibels on the full scale" is a measure of an individual measuring, and taking the average of a set of measurements is a much simpler arithmetic operation.

The specific equivalence between an average and the LUFS computed by following the algorithm can be surely be seen for trivial cases (say, a constant signal at -18dBFS) but not sure how interesting that is.

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:36 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
DigitalMusicProduction wrote:That entirely answers the question.

Hurrah! :D

Out of interest is there a comparison between dBFS and LUFS ? Example what would -18dBFS equivalate to in -LUFS ?

No, because they are fundamentally different things. It's that fundamentals word again... and an absent understanding of fundamentals like this is where you keep tripping up.

dBFS is an measurement of the instantaneous signal amplitude measured in decibels relative to peak digital level (hence the suffix, FS which stands for 'full scale').

LUFS is a measurement of the perceived loudness of a programme integrated over time. It is measured in Loudness Units relative to digital full scale -- hence the acronym LUFS*.

While they both broadly measure the size of the signal, they each measure that size in a very different way, and they also do it in very different time dimensions. So there is no equivalence whatsoever.

*For the benefit of our American friends, this loudness measurement is denoted with LKFS which refers to Loudness (units) with a K-weighting filter, relative to (digital) full scale.

LKFS and LUFS are completely equivalent. The LKFS term came first from the ITU-R BS1770 standard, but it was subsequently renamed in Europe to make it 'more friendly' to end users as LUFS (pronounced 'luffs').

Re: Volume Levels At Bouncing ???

PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:56 pm
by desmond
Hugh Robjohns wrote:LKFS and LUFS are completely equivalent. The LKFS term came first from the ITU-R BS1770 standard, but it was subsequently renamed in Europe to make it 'more friendly' to end users as LUFS (pronounced 'luffs').

How annoying would it be If I start spelling/pronouncing it as "lukfs"? (lufks?)
More or less than the kettle lead thing? Asking for a friend.... ;)