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Waves updated their plan

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Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:22 am
by desmond
johnny h wrote:Exactly, "solid", which means functional, mediocre and unspectacular.


It only means that if those are the adjectives you choose to illustrate it.

There *are* some unspectacular and mediocre ones, and some great ones, as I already mentioned in my "vague" post (what do you want, an individual product catalog with my personal views on every plugin they've ever made?)

johnny h wrote:Unfortunately these "solid" plug-ins are sold at extraordinary prices and come with obscene usage and upgrading policies.


Their prices are on the high side, because they like to market themselves for professionals rather than the "I refuse to pay more than £20 for my DAW" entitlement generation that whine and moan whenever they can't afford something.

But that doesn't mean they are all like this - for example, I bought the Musicians Bundle 2, specifically because the Renaissance Comps are good sounding and functional, and Doubler is great without a decent alternative. The EQ's are Ok, and Supertap I don't use as it's imo a pretty boring bland plugin. But for essentially a hundred quid, I got the RenComp and RenVox, Doubler, the RenEQ's, SuperTap and RenAxe, and I consider that a pretty good deal. Then, the ren comps were for me much better sounding and simpler to use than Logic's compressor, and I bought them specifically as a replacement for the UAD compressors which I lost due to moving to a laptop.

When I upgraded my machine and had to generate a new auth because they had moved away from disk authorisation, even though I was out of WUP Waves did generate me new authorisations, and I paid the £20 later on for WUP when needing to update the plugins for a new OS.

Less than I've had to pay for other PPC->Intel upgrades, or new OS versions. That's not really "obscene", at least in my case. Of course I'm not a massive bundle owner, but it seems $200 for a $4K bundle is not really obscene. Heck if you want a one time ProSupport phone call with Apple about ProApps it costs nearly that. For *one* phone call. (That *is* what I call obscene... ( ! )).

Their new plugins, like the CLA series, are very good and certainly "up there" in terms of modelling and good sounding DSP. Don't right them off as "bad" simply because you have a bias against the company.

However, I much prefer the attitudes of some other, more customer-focused companies and prefer to invest my money elsewhere these days. But if an individual likes Waves products, and knows the implications of WUP and what they are buying into and still want to buy them, I can't say they are a "bad" choice, because politics aside, while not every product they make is a knockout, they do have some great products still.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:16 am
by JamesSimpson
Steve Hill wrote:
Bob Bickerton wrote:James is right, UAD plugs have to be used on a card, so would be less flexible if you're moving between several computers, so it's connected to work flow too, but then any software has to be installed on every computer you use, I guess the difference is the iLok is more transferable.

There is the UAD Solo laptop card which you can stick in your top pocket and move from machine to machine with ease....

Apart from as i said; doesn't work with any current 13 or 15inch laptops, and the 17 is too big and expensive over the 15inch.

Also it means an expresscard converter in every machine, or a UAD card in every computer.

As it is i need an internet connection on the host computer and an ilok.


I actually tried to get hold of a laptop with the expresscard slot, I went to an apple reseller, they actually had one on show, they refused to sell it to me because apple would bite their ass if they didn't return the show model.

I then travelled to an apple store and asked if they had any instock, they didn't and they couldn't sell me one because they were only allowed to sell the new ones, due to some stupid rule, essentially a jobsworth situation. No matter how I pleaded they couldn't get me one.

After 2 weeks, I needed to have a laptop, so i gave in to apple's bullshit rules and got the new version, sad in the knowledge that I could never work with UAD plugins, atleast till I can afford a Mac Pro in a portable rack anyways.



As for quality, what a load of tosh, Waves produce some fantastic plugins used by tons of professionals, just look at the mix analysis tracks in soundonsound. I think you would be hard pressed to find one where not one waves plugin has been used.


They produce some fantastic plugins, as do UA, Nomad, URS, PSP.



Tools for the job, not whats in vogue.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:34 am
by Neil C
johnny h wrote:
desmond wrote:
While it's true that some of their early plugins are a bit long in the tooth now, and some of them aren't that great, most are decent and some of the more recent ones are very good - certainly some are as good as, if not better than some of their UAD counterparts (Some of UA's plugins are also long in the tooth as well...)

That's the vaguest paragraph i've ever read!


I think you must need to read more often. That paragraph isn't in the slightest bit vague.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:41 pm
by Jez Corbett
I'm not keen on Waves business policies either.

BUT Waves do one thing no one else does - offer a big bundle of plugins that do everything that no one else does. Back when bundled plugins with sequencers were mediocre at best and generally lacking in certain processing options, Waves offered a one stop shop solution, and became very successful on the back of that.

Now, most sequencers and audio applications come with a fairly respectable base of plugins themselves, which is why they are now catching up with other plugin manufacturers and offering more 'boutique' and retro effects.

But their brand is entrenched, and they still offer a one-stop-shop for EVERYTHING you need audio-processing wise. And until anyone else gets a clue and steps up and offers what they do, Waves will stay at the top.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:30 pm
by * User requested deletion 2 *
If it addresses your needs and you can afford the outlay, the Mercury bundle is a bit of a no-brainer. Catch Waves at a time when they're doing one of their big discounts and buy through an American online retailer for further savings and you end up with a shedload of good plugs that are updated with new releases without cost and a maxxed out WUP of $200.

What's not to like?

On the other hand, a lot of their other bundles are way overpriced I think, and the pricing strategy on their recent 'build your own bundles' promo seems way off beam.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:46 pm
by johnny h
desmond wrote:
Their prices are on the high side, because they like to market themselves for professionals rather than the "I refuse to pay more than £20 for my DAW" entitlement generation that whine and moan whenever they can't afford something.
Waves plugins have been historically the most easily cracked and heavily pirated. Perhaps this is the secret to their success; get everyone running the cracked versions to breed familiarity and network effects, then the studios are forced into buying them. Whether this will work in the future with falling budgets and studios closing down all the time, i'm not sure.

But that doesn't mean they are all like this - for example, I bought the Musicians Bundle 2, specifically because the Renaissance Comps are good sounding and functional, and Doubler is great without a decent alternative. The EQ's are Ok, and Supertap I don't use as it's imo a pretty boring bland plugin. But for essentially a hundred quid, I got the RenComp and RenVox, Doubler, the RenEQ's, SuperTap and RenAxe, and I consider that a pretty good deal. Then, the ren comps were for me much better sounding and simpler to use than Logic's compressor, and I bought them specifically as a replacement for the UAD compressors which I lost due to moving to a laptop.

When I upgraded my machine and had to generate a new auth because they had moved away from disk authorisation, even though I was out of WUP Waves did generate me new authorisations, and I paid the £20 later on for WUP when needing to update the plugins for a new OS.

Less than I've had to pay for other PPC->Intel upgrades, or new OS versions. That's not really "obscene", at least in my case. Of course I'm not a massive bundle owner, but it seems
Their prices are on the high side, because they like to market themselves for professionals rather than the "I refuse to pay more than £20 for my DAW" entitlement generation that whine and moan whenever they can't afford something.
Waves plugins have been historically the most easily cracked and heavily pirated. Perhaps this is the secret to their success; get everyone running the cracked versions to breed familiarity and network effects, then the studios are forced into buying them. Whether this will work in the future with falling budgets and studios closing down all the time, i'm not sure.

But that doesn't mean they are all like this - for example, I bought the Musicians Bundle 2, specifically because the Renaissance Comps are good sounding and functional, and Doubler is great without a decent alternative. The EQ's are Ok, and Supertap I don't use as it's imo a pretty boring bland plugin. But for essentially a hundred quid, I got the RenComp and RenVox, Doubler, the RenEQ's, SuperTap and RenAxe, and I consider that a pretty good deal. Then, the ren comps were for me much better sounding and simpler to use than Logic's compressor, and I bought them specifically as a replacement for the UAD compressors which I lost due to moving to a laptop.

When I upgraded my machine and had to generate a new auth because they had moved away from disk authorisation, even though I was out of WUP Waves did generate me new authorisations, and I paid the £20 later on for WUP when needing to update the plugins for a new OS.

Less than I've had to pay for other PPC->Intel upgrades, or new OS versions. That's not really "obscene", at least in my case. Of course I'm not a massive bundle owner, but it seems 00 for a K bundle is not really obscene. Heck if you want a one time ProSupport phone call with Apple about ProApps it costs nearly that. For *one* phone call. (That *is* what I call obscene... ( ! )).

Their new plugins, like the CLA series, are very good and certainly "up there" in terms of modelling and good sounding DSP. Don't right them off as "bad" simply because you have a bias against the company.

However, I much prefer the attitudes of some other, more customer-focused companies and prefer to invest my money elsewhere these days. But if an individual likes Waves products, and knows the implications of WUP and what they are buying into and still want to buy them, I can't say they are a "bad" choice, because politics aside, while not every product they make is a knockout, they do have some great products still. 00 for a K bundle is not really obscene. Heck if you want a one time ProSupport phone call with Apple about ProApps it costs nearly that. For *one* phone call. (That *is* what I call obscene... ( ! )).

Their new plugins, like the CLA series, are very good and certainly "up there" in terms of modelling and good sounding DSP. Don't right them off as "bad" simply because you have a bias against the company.

However, I much prefer the attitudes of some other, more customer-focused companies and prefer to invest my money elsewhere these days. But if an individual likes Waves products, and knows the implications of WUP and what they are buying into and still want to buy them, I can't say they are a "bad" choice, because politics aside, while not every product they make is a knockout, they do have some great products still.
I haven't tried out the CLA series. I do think the Renaissance EQs and Compressors were way overhyped, but did a job. The reverb was very low quality though, bordering on being completely useless, and even the IR-1 suffers from the same lifelessness of other static convolution reverbs. Imo this is more of a problem for electronic and pop music than acoustic or classical.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:10 pm
by JamesSimpson
johnny h wrote:
I haven't tried out the CLA series. I do think the Renaissance EQs and Compressors were way overhyped, but did a job. The reverb was very low quality though, bordering on being completely useless, and even the IR-1 suffers from the same lifelessness of other static convolution reverbs. Imo this is more of a problem for electronic and pop music than acoustic or classical.

Have you tried the SSL 4000 emulations? It's great, great EQ, compressor has a great aggressive bite to it.

API stuff? Neve emulations? The new Helios channel and Pye compressor? Puig's Pultec and Fairchild emulations? Problem solving plug ins like the Debreath and De esser?

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:02 pm
by _ Six _
The SSL 4000 are amazing plugs.. as are the Neve V Series and Maxx Bass plugs I use..

You can't detract from the quality... regardless of the politics.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:25 pm
by jayzed
I quite like trueverb, using the early reflections only, though.
More for placement than any obvious reverb, it's easier to setup than manually programmed delays for the same idea.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:53 pm
by MarcusH
I just got their Vocal Rider - which is really effective. Except for a similar product that's ProTools only, it's unique, so I had to buy Waves.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:39 pm
by * User requested deletion 2 *
MarcusH wrote:I just got their Vocal Rider - which is really effective. Except for a similar product that's ProTools only, it's unique, so I had to buy Waves.

Likewise for me with their stereo to 5.1 upmix plug. Saved my bacon a few times, is very effective and costs a whole lot less than anything comparable on the market.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:55 pm
by stinkfinger
Waves-bashing, count me in, where do I sign?

I stopped using them as soon as they introduced the WUP. I used to love the renaissnace compressor, soooo glad I never forked out for one of the more expensive bundles.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:46 am
by JamesSimpson
stinkfinger wrote:Waves-bashing, count me in, where do I sign?

I stopped using them as soon as they introduced the WUP. I used to love the renaissnace compressor, soooo glad I never forked out for one of the more expensive bundles.


That's exactly the attitude a lot of people on many forums, not just this one take,

State that they hate such n such a company. Go on to say they used to love a product they did once, go on to say they never wanted to pay for some of that companies high end stuff, and end up saying that they did [ ****** ] up once so they are never going to buy stuff ever again.


Don't get me wrong, some companies do some bad things they lose customers, however i do tire of needless bad press when a company takes steps to right previous wrongs...

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:53 am
by johnny h
JamesSimpson wrote:
stinkfinger wrote:Waves-bashing, count me in, where do I sign?

I stopped using them as soon as they introduced the WUP. I used to love the renaissnace compressor, soooo glad I never forked out for one of the more expensive bundles.


That's exactly the attitude a lot of people on many forums, not just this one take,

State that they hate such n such a company. Go on to say they used to love a product they did once, go on to say they never wanted to pay for some of that companies high end stuff, and end up saying that they did [ ****** ] up once so they are never going to buy stuff ever again.


Don't get me wrong, some companies do some bad things they lose customers, however i do tire of needless bad press when a company takes steps to right previous wrongs...

Yes I kind of agree with you, despite the fact that i've been waves bashing myself!

As for your earlier comments about the newer plugins, I've tried the SSL which was okay, not life changing or anything. I've got a UAD card so I've never been tempted to try the Fairchild or Pultec - are Waves emulations superior to UAD's?

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:59 am
by JamesSimpson
Afraid i've never been able to try the UAD's I rather like the waves SSL myself, really comes together when using lots of instances to glue things together, imparts some sort of pleasing sound to my ears. I don't own the fairchilds but i demo'd them and found them great, couldn't afford all the plug ins i want though haha.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:29 am
by Bob Bickerton
JamesSimpson wrote:State that they hate such n such a company. Go on to say they used to love a product they did once, go on to say they never wanted to pay for some of that companies high end stuff, and end up saying that they did [ ****** ] up once so they are never going to buy stuff ever again.


Don't get me wrong, some companies do some bad things they lose customers, however i do tire of needless bad press when a company takes steps to right previous wrongs...


This is getting tiresome but let me say:

Waves is the only company I criticize like this and I'm very consistent in my criticism.

I did buy some 'high-end' stuff from them including two suites, including the mastering one.

They haven't taken steps to right the wrong of WUP - it still exists!

Had they had a different policy re WUP I probably would have bought many more thousands of dollars of plug-ins from them.

My advice to people about to buy into plug-in suites is to avoid Waves because I believe their WUP scheme is extortionate.

My advice to current users is to do yourselves a favour, stop defending Waves, and lobby them to change their policy!

Bob

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:41 am
by MarcusH
Can I ask - is WUP wrong in principle or is it the actual prices that they've set? I mean if it was capped at $50 a year would people still be annoyed?

Yes if I'd bought say stuff like Mercury Native for $9,800, then Waves' rather self-satisfied press release, graciously capping my contribution at $200 p.a. would indeed have me seething. :madas: But if they had wanted $50 a year for the same products, it might not bother me.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:30 am
by James Perrett
I think the whole Ban Piracy episode was shameful and they should realise that entrapping potential customers and then prosecuting them isn't going to win any friends. I own a few of their plug-ins and I was thinking of buying more but I'm now going for alternatives as a matter of policy. I don't want to support a company that treats their potential customers as criminals.

Cheers

James.

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:33 pm
by JamesSimpson
All you have to do if you don't like it though is not buy their products which as you say you do.

So if your not buying its no longer a problem for you and no longer a moan, for those of us who need these plugins as a matter of course, any cap on update fee's is welcome.


Essentially what i'm trying to say is people who don't even use or own waves products seem to bitch and moan continuously like waves come knocking at their door bending them over their mixing desk and scream at them to buy their plugins.


Waves have a place, as do UAD, URS, Sonnox, TC, IK multimedia, etcccc

Re: Waves updated their plan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:16 pm
by Tui
JamesSimpson wrote:

Waves have a place

They sure do - one that's been especially reserved for them:


Image

:D