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SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

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SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby Mark6432 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:54 pm

(not sure if this is in the right section....I didn't feel the keyboards/sound design was any more suitable)

Just a quick ?

Should I always load up orchestral samples (EWQL - Kontalt 3) in stereo...because of the stereo rooms in which they were sampled

or

Should I load up mono instruments in mono - solo violin, clarinet etc. and ensembles/large string sections on stereo?

Thanks
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby BJG145 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:48 pm

I'd have thought you'd load everything in stereo to benefit from the recorded reverb & placement, unless you had a particular reason not to (eg track count).
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby narcoman » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:07 pm

stereo baby, stereo.


Unless you're doing the job I'm on at the moment - mono orchestra !!! (recorded fer real as it happens :) )
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby Scope » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:35 pm

Totally disagree, I have never seen or heard a stereo violin ( for example )

The instruments are best used dry, so you can create the reverb space properly,
and in mono, where you reproduce the stereo spread, as a real orchestra does.

if you want to do it properly that is....
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby narcoman » Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:10 pm

Scope wrote:Totally disagree, I have never seen or heard a stereo violin ( for example )

The instruments are best used dry, so you can create the reverb space properly,
and in mono, where you reproduce the stereo spread, as a real orchestra does.

if you want to do it properly that is....




:D

awesome..... imagine it :)
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby oggyb » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:14 am

Scope wrote:Totally disagree, I have never seen or heard a stereo violin ( for example )

The instruments are best used dry, so you can create the reverb space properly,
and in mono, where you reproduce the stereo spread, as a real orchestra does.

if you want to do it properly that is....
Not sure I agree. With samples that are released in stereo with the performers recording the samples in situ, the stereo spread is accurate from the start. Of course there's nothing like a stereo violin, but neither does a violin emit sound from a single point in space! The argument is weak.

If you want to set instruments in the soundstage manually in mono, you'll need to record them from scratch yourself. As some inevitably do. . .

Narc: read your PMs once in a while :smirk:
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby shufflebeat » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:22 am

Scope wrote:I have never seen or heard a stereo violin

Every violin is stereo until processed to the contrary (recorded in mono).
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby Fat Cat Strings » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:43 am

Scope wrote:I have never seen or heard a stereo violin

All my violins are stereo, and that's the way I'd like it to stay.
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby Scope » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:02 pm

There are no stereo violins. I cant think of any acoustic instrument that is stereo
True they do not emit sound from just one source, but the instrument can only emit sound from its body, which is too small to create a stereo spread.
Even if you were standing in front of it, what possible difference could you discern from
your two ears ?

If you arrange your stereo spread in a similar style to how a real orchestra is laid out on a stage, you will achieve a similar effect ( to a real orchestra that is. )
Using stereo samples where every instrument is in both left and right channels, only fills the stereo field with a blanket of sound.
This unnatural balance sounds unlike any real orchestra, thus loosing the effect.

But hey, I only write film scores, what would I know ?
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby Tui » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:43 pm

Scope wrote:There are no stereo violins.

There are, but they're really expensive.

:D
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby narcoman » Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:16 pm

Scope wrote:There are no stereo violins. I cant think of any acoustic instrument that is stereo
True they do not emit sound from just one source, but the instrument can only emit sound from its body, which is too small to create a stereo spread.
Even if you were standing in front of it, what possible difference could you discern from
your two ears ?

You would discern a stereo sound. What you hear is the time domain difference within the room. ALL sound is stereo by virtue of having two ears. If you put one mono mic in front of any source you are changing what really happens. Stylistically might work - but for any comparison with how we hear a real violin - a stereo set of mic's for recording a violin is more "real".
Scope wrote:

If you arrange your stereo spread in a similar style to how a real orchestra is laid out on a stage, you will achieve a similar effect ( to a real orchestra that is. )
Using stereo samples where every instrument is in both left and right channels, only fills the stereo field with a blanket of sound.
This unnatural balance sounds unlike any real orchestra, thus loosing the effect.


There isn't a sample set set out there that sound "natural" to those here who record a lot of real orchestral music. For that reason (and another one which I won't go into cuz ya won't like it) I loathe sample sets for orchestra.
But let's go with them for this : Most sample sets are recorded "in position" relative to the mic' setups. So 'celli are still to the right. Violin 1 is to the left. Generally.

Unless you're going for a particular effect - leave your stereo samples (from most commercial sets ) panned left/right. The positioning is preserved within the recordings. Recording a mono violin - again, a particular effect - bit for a natural sound you would be looking for a stereo recording.
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby BJG145 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:02 pm

Basically, all the samples in EWQL are recorded and intended to be used in stereo. From the manual:

Symphonic Orchestra is different from most other collections of orchestral samples in that the panning of the various instruments to the traditional locations on a symphonic stage is built in to the stereo samples. The double basses, for example, are already louder in the right channel. Therefore, one can leave the panning level at “center” for all instruments and they will be correctly placed on the stage in the final mix. Note that the natural panning within the Symphonic Orchestra samples has one subtle feature that reverb plug-ins do not offer: correctly timed reflections from all surfaces. To understand this concept, consider a double bass player who is 5 meters from the wall to our right and 45 meters from the wall to our left. We are seated half way between the walls The reflection from the right wall, which will be louder in our right ear, travels 30 meters (5 plus 25); the reflection from the left wall, louder in our left ear, travels 70 meters (45 plus 25). That 40-meter difference means that the reflection arrives in our right ear approximately one-ninth of a second sooner than in our left ear, a significant difference. And the bassoon and harp and tuba all have their characteristic left/right delay based on where they sit on the stage. It is impossible for a single reverb to achieve that level of realism.
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby shufflebeat » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:06 am

Scope wrote:There are no stereo violins. I cant think of any acoustic instrument that is stereo

I wish I'd known that earlier, I could have saved a lot of time and expense.

("Put TWO mics in front of an acoustic guitar... ?
...No I just hit record and go!")
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby Mark6432 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:42 pm

Thanks for that reference BJG - They were my thoughts initially and, lo and behold, I should have (thoroughly) checked the manual.

I understand Scope's point but I think we're looking at reverb more than fundamental source sound/instrument here. Also, I'm on EWQL Gold so you're not able to adjust the reverb levels. Well, you certainly can't decrease them which for me is a huge bummer with this version of the library.....it kind of sets a (very wet) minimum level for entire tracks.

Cheers for everyone's input though.
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Re: SHould I use orchestral samples in stereo or mono

Postby oggyb » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:02 pm

That so?

What about fiddling with the release of each set of samples so you don't get as much of the reverb tail? I do that all the time to good effect in EWQL.
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