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Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby Combo » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:32 am

Mark Knutson wrote:I remember buying the Renaissance Pack or some such. They made it obsolete so after a windows upgrade I would have had to buy a brand new product of some sort--no upgrade path.
Still using mine, no problems. Paid the WUP for 64 bit and VST 3. Also paid it for the expanded pack, which I wish I didn't, now. And one last time to line up my versions with L3. So four times in about 15 years, unless the first 2 were on the same payment. I can't remember. Can't really complain about that.

Edit: Makes more sense to BDS coz they are made out of dead Palestinian babies.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby awjoe » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:10 pm

Can I ask a question about the WUP? (I have Waves stuff, but haven't bought into the WUP.)

If I get a new computer with a new OS and need to update my Waves stuff, I can pay for a year of WUP, get the plugins up and running again, and then when it expires at the end of a year, the plugins will still run, the same way that my Waves stuff is running now. True?

In my case, that's $230. I'm wondering if it's worth it. As a one-off, every few years with a new computer - maybe.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby Zukan » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:41 am

The Red Bladder wrote:Why?

1. That whole iLok thing.
2. The cost.
3. Reaper plugs are better and free - as are many others.
4. The company is litigious, to the point of absurdity and beyond.
5. Waves plugs can sometimes bring a system down.

1. Most companies I deal with use iLoks.
2. They are cheap nowadays as they are competing with the other mad developers who are pricing themselves into oblivion. Buy on sale days.
3. Most DAWs have great plugs now, so not exclusive to one manufacturer. Additionally, that argument can be made with most plugins.
4. Agreed. They are wankers.
5. Not had any problems with my Waves plugs, but I could be lucky.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby Sam Inglis » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:51 am

The Red Bladder wrote:1. That whole iLok thing.

I've just had to reinstall everything on my laptop from scratch. It was dead easy with all my iLok plug-ins. A complete pain with some of the others that still use other copy protection systems.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby Urthlupe » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:50 am

awjoe wrote:Can I ask a question about the WUP? (I have Waves stuff, but haven't bought into the WUP.)

If I get a new computer with a new OS and need to update my Waves stuff, I can pay for a year of WUP, get the plugins up and running again, and then when it expires at the end of a year, the plugins will still run, the same way that my Waves stuff is running now. True?

In my case, that's $230. I'm wondering if it's worth it. As a one-off, every few years with a new computer - maybe.

Yup awjoe, that's how it works for me.

I think you're wise incidentally to assess whether it's worthwhile for you.

Kindest

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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby awjoe » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:30 pm

Urthlupe wrote:
awjoe wrote:Can I ask a question about the WUP? (I have Waves stuff, but haven't bought into the WUP.)

If I get a new computer with a new OS and need to update my Waves stuff, I can pay for a year of WUP, get the plugins up and running again, and then when it expires at the end of a year, the plugins will still run, the same way that my Waves stuff is running now. True?

In my case, that's $230. I'm wondering if it's worth it. As a one-off, every few years with a new computer - maybe.

Yup awjoe, that's how it works for me.

I think you're wise incidentally to assess whether it's worthwhile for you.

Kindest

Loopy

Well, there's only one of their plugins that at this point I feel I couldn't do without, so if I get a new computer or something and everything stops working, I'll just re-buy the plugin, which is a lot cheaper than the WUP. And in the meantime, shift my plugin buying behavior to other companies - I don't want to be dependent on even more of their stuff that I'll need to re-buy at some point.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby alexis » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:54 pm

awjoe wrote:....

Well, there's only one of their plugins that at this point I feel I couldn't do without, so if I get a new computer or something and everything stops working, I'll just re-buy the plugin, which is a lot cheaper than the WUP. And in the meantime, shift my plugin buying behavior to other companies - I don't want to be dependent on even more of their stuff that I'll need to re-buy at some point.

Make sure you don't trial VoiceCentric or PianoCentric as well, or the math won't be as clear cut anymore!
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby bigster » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:11 pm

awjoe wrote:Can I ask a question about the WUP? (I have Waves stuff, but haven't bought into the WUP.)

If I get a new computer with a new OS and need to update my Waves stuff, I can pay for a year of WUP, get the plugins up and running again, and then when it expires at the end of a year, the plugins will still run, the same way that my Waves stuff is running now. True?

In my case, that's $230. I'm wondering if it's worth it. As a one-off, every few years with a new computer - maybe.

You may find you'll need to buy a WUP far less often than that.

I've had Waves Platinum for ages, and I think I've only ever bought a WUP twice, the last one in November 2012. It gave me a year's worth of updates during which Waves released V9 of their plug-ins and I duly upgraded from V8. The WUP lapsed in November 2013, and since then I've continued to use my Waves plug-ins, to update with 'point' releases of V9, and install Platinum on a couple of new Macs. V9 has kept pace (eventually) with Mac operating system releases over that time, and I'm happily running now in both El Capitan and MacOS Sierra.

It's absolutely not the case you'll need to buy a year of WUP anytime you get a new Mac. But there will come a time, for me and for anyone else, when Waves does a whole-point release of their underlying plug-in architecture, and doesn't maintain compatibility on newer OSs for the older versions. Then we get the option to buy another year's worth of WUP to stay on the cutting edge - but it's not compulsory. Incidentally, Waves bundles often get new plug-ins added to them when there's a whole-point release, so there is an incentive to update beyond just keeping things up to date.

The thing is, WUP has always sounded like a subscription/rental model (which many people hate the idea of) when it is anything but. It's just a straight update fee, like for any other software, but with the promise that you're also covered if any further updates were released in the following 12 months. The fact that there's so much confusion about it points to the fact that Waves never communicated the whole concept well from the very start.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby awjoe » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:16 pm

bigster wrote:
awjoe wrote:Can I ask a question about the WUP? (I have Waves stuff, but haven't bought into the WUP.)

If I get a new computer with a new OS and need to update my Waves stuff, I can pay for a year of WUP, get the plugins up and running again, and then when it expires at the end of a year, the plugins will still run, the same way that my Waves stuff is running now. True?

In my case, that's $230. I'm wondering if it's worth it. As a one-off, every few years with a new computer - maybe.

You may find you'll need to buy a WUP far less often than that.

I've had Waves Platinum for ages, and I think I've only ever bought a WUP twice, the last one in November 2012. It gave me a year's worth of updates during which Waves released V9 of their plug-ins and I duly upgraded from V8. The WUP lapsed in November 2013, and since then I've continued to use my Waves plug-ins, to update with 'point' releases of V9, and install Platinum on a couple of new Macs. V9 has kept pace (eventually) with Mac operating system releases over that time, and I'm happily running now in both El Capitan and MacOS Sierra.

It's absolutely not the case you'll need to buy a year of WUP anytime you get a new Mac. But there will come a time, for me and for anyone else, when Waves does a whole-point release of their underlying plug-in architecture, and doesn't maintain compatibility on newer OSs for the older versions. Then we get the option to buy another year's worth of WUP to stay on the cutting edge - but it's not compulsory. Incidentally, Waves bundles often get new plug-ins added to them when there's a whole-point release, so there is an incentive to update beyond just keeping things up to date.

The thing is, WUP has always sounded like a subscription/rental model (which many people hate the idea of) when it is anything but. It's just a straight update fee, like for any other software, but with the promise that you're also covered if any further updates were released in the following 12 months. The fact that there's so much confusion about it points to the fact that Waves never communicated the whole concept well from the very start.

Thanks for that - it seems reasonable. At this point, my plan is to bide my time for a while and see how it pans out. I'm happy enough with the plugins themselves.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby awjoe » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:19 pm

alexis wrote:Make sure you don't trial VoiceCentric or PianoCentric as well, or the math won't be as clear cut anymore!

Interesting. I'm happy these days with how my vocals are turning out using a five- or six-plugin chain plus sends. So, I'll demo it and report back.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby J_J_Breeze » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:51 pm

One of the good things about the likes of NI, Waves and the other big boys is that they are very likely to be here in ten years time.

In Reaper "Clear cache/re-scan" has always fixed any problem that I've encountered with Waves plugs... Good tools for the sales prices.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby alexis » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:52 pm

Well this is from the "Well wasn't that a nice bit of unexpected good news dept." :D :

I had bought three Waves plugins over a period of time, and together they turned out to comprise a "Signature Series" (Greg Wells PianoCentric at the great advice of someone here, VoiceCentric, and MixCentric. I've got a fair amount of experience with the first two and highly recommend trialing them, I like them a lot; the third I haven't learned to use quite yet). And somehow I bought them all at significant discounts, roughly 30-40% off "list".

Turns out Mr. Wells has released a 4th plug in the series recently, "ToneCentric", which by my brief reading is a distortion plug. I decided it may sound nice but for now I really wasn't in the market, so didn't think much else about it.

Then I read that it might be possible there was a significant discount available since I owned the other three, so I decided to check it out on the Waves site. It wasn't immediately exactly crystal clear, so I activated the "Chat with Mr. Waves" window.

The nice man there asked me very focused questions, brought me to the right pages, and as it turns out I get the ToneCentric plug for free!

So, that being better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, I am quite pleased!

And speaking to the title of the OP, I have to say that my experiences with Waves, from signing up, iLok-ing, purchasing, using, through today has been nothing but problem free (and super enjoyable, in terms of using the plugs). So I for one have nothing to say but good things about them.

Now, if when I get back to the DAW and download I find that things are not what they were described to be, I might need to amend/revise!
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby forumuser793939 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:13 am

I think for many it's not all the wup, legal etc issues, just the fact that they sound bad vs better plugs (even many stock DAW plugs).

Waves plugs are the only ones I know of where a massive ratio of users have ended up disliking what they do to a mix when you let them build up (using them on lots of tracks).

There is something off in the algos Waves use, esp their analog "emulations". I can always find a better sounding plug than the waves emulation, compression, eq.. w/e, the waves ones always end up actively harming the audio (thinning, harshening, digitalizing, uglyizing), some don't notice this (using just one or two plugs) or are working on pro tracks recorded through neves etc where the waves plugs are used subtly (though surely better plugs would sound even better - those pros just use waves because they know them and they've been around for years but I see plenty of them also shifting these days to other plug makers).

Do a mix twice first with waves on everything, then a mix with everything BUT waves (mix up stock plugs with third party - just use no waves) and compare. If you've done it as accurately as you can so they sound superficially identical, you should still be able to spot the waves mix as more digital/harsh/narrow and cold.

THAT is #1 reason I don't use waves anymore no matter how placebo like their shiny branded logos or their daft (scam) sales are. Sound, it's all about sound.

They do have some upsides, they work well with controllers like D-Command on pro tools while some makers don't, but I can't think of much else to like about them. They install a ton of bloat all over your system with the multiple waves.dlls/keys etc, they take over your cursor while loading (waves icon - arrogance! nobody else does this), their GUIs suck response wise, always laggy, stupid surrounding graphic of current element etc.

Considering all that AND the stuff everyone else already mentioned I see no reason to use waves over any other better plug maker, or even some stock plugs (from daws that genuinely have some good stock plugs like Pro Tools and possibly logic)
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby CS70 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:18 am

forumuser793939 wrote:I think for many it's not all the wup, legal etc issues, just the fact that they sound bad vs better plugs (even many stock DAW plugs).

Not particularly a waves fanboy or defender here, but this seems to be a gross overstatement.

I myself I've done mix at the studio using Waves plugs sprinkled liberally (especially the Aural Exciter and the J37 Tape emulation) and haven't noticed any bad results (and more importantly, nor have other engineers... and listeners seem to love the result). I've also occasionally used also the SSL channel and bus emulation with very good results.

There's some plugs out of which I can't get a good sound (notably the H-delay) and some have me underwhelmed (the Kramer tape emulation for example, doesn't really do much for me) and I've never used any of the limiters/compressors... but to state that all Waves plugins, if stacked, make a mix sound bad it's not right.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby TheMiller » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:44 pm

Some years ago I bought Waves Platinum - it was around £3000. Recently I updated by OS and had to buy a Waves 'Upgrade' which added another £500.

I also recently started subscribing to the Slate Everything Package - around £17 per month.
Since when I have rarely chosen a Waves plug-in to use. And yet it will take over 17 years for my expenditure on Slate to reach that of Waves - and with Slate I get every update.

There's nothing wrong with Waves plug-ins, but the can be bettered and they are VERY expensive for what they are.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby paul tha other » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:18 pm

neither a fan or a hater here but wasnt waves the company that was going round studios to see if anyone was using hacked versions of their plugs, then forcing the studio to purchase the plugs there and then, or something to that effect..i dont agree with pirate software but i thought that was a bit shitty at the time ..

ive used the plugs in my time but i think apart from the ssl channel strip and a couple of others most of the plug that come bundled with logic sound just as good..i remember using rcomp a lot on a session i did a few years ago but as a "let just see what this does" kind of moment tried the stock logic compressor and at the time i thought the logic compressor was a little bit better or at least more transparent
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby The Korff » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:46 pm

paul tha other wrote:neither a fan or a hater here but wasnt waves the company that was going round studios to see if anyone was using hacked versions of their plugs, then forcing the studio to purchase the plugs there and then, or something to that effect..i dont agree with pirate software but i thought that was a bit shitty at the time ..

Yes, that was them — as part of the 'Ban Piracy' campaign, I think? (A stupid name for a campaign; if it wasn't banned it wouldn't be piracy... It's like saying "Make crime illegal!")

If memory serves, they also basically used entrapment tactics... Specifically asking studios to provide Waves plug-ins, knowing that they didn't have them. That sort of thing.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby Sam Inglis » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:56 am

People love to hate Waves, don't they!

I heard a story that paints the company in a positive light recently.

Much of the theoretical work that underlies digital audio signal processing was done in the UK by Michael Gerzon. Many companies have profited by exploiting this work, including Waves.

However, Gerzon was never a well man -- and when he finally became too ill to work, it was Waves stepped up and provided financial support. Everyone who has ever made a digital processor has used his ideas, but it was Waves who put their hands in their pockets for him.
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:30 am

According to Wickedpedia Michael Gerzon died in 1996 and Waves started as a company in 1992. He apparently did do work for Waves during that 4 year period. I've found a posting on rec.audio.high-end as follows:

To All,

Michael Gerzon died early this morning.
This is a great loss to the audio community....
May his soul rest in peace.

Gilad Keren
Waves

So the relationship was clearly a strong one, which bears out Sam's story.

CC
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Re: Why have Waves plug-ins gotten such bad press?

Postby James Perrett » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:17 pm

Sam Inglis wrote:Everyone who has ever made a digital processor has used his ideas,

I think that might be over-cooking things a bit Sam as digital signal processing goes back long before Michael Gerzon started working on it. He certainly made a big contribution in certain areas (like noise shaped dither) though. I also understand that most of the DSP algorithms in the early Waves plug-ins were written by him.
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