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Tackling room resonances

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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:09 pm

James Perrett wrote:The best way to do this on a budget is to forget about buying commercial products and build your own panels from Rockwool slabs in a wood frame covered by Cara fabric.

guys I know this discussion is quite old but Im trying to sort out my room and as such am going through the previous posts and queries relating to room treatment etc. I found a build supplier here in Dublin near my home who has rockwool in easy to use slabs in a pack. Sounds easier to use than a roll of the stuff. But does the rockwool have to be of a certain grade or thickness etc. Builders sell this for the purpose of insulating a house. They're not in the home studio business. Can any rockwool work?
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:06 pm

TNGator wrote:... does the rockwool have to be of a certain grade or thickness etc. Builders sell this for the purpose of insulating a house. They're not in the home studio business. Can any rockwool work?

Not all rockwool is equal. You need to find the right rockwool density for audio use. I can't reel off the right specs from the top of my head but my understanding is that you can get the correct grade from a builders merchant, though you may need to have them order it or hunt around a bit.

Hopefully someone more knowledgable than I can give you the info you need, else I'll dig it out from my notes later when I get home.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby blinddrew » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:12 pm

Not sure if you use the same specification over there but what you're after is RW3, 45 - 60kg/m3 is the density you want to be looking for.
Or at least I hope it is because it's on my shopping list... :)
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:52 pm

blinddrew wrote:Not sure if you use the same specification over there but what you're after is RW3, 45 - 60kg/m3 is the density you want to be looking for.
Or at least I hope it is because it's on my shopping list... :)
Tá. You know in hindsight my question ws a bit silly in that there probably isn't a great selection. It might be a case of you'll take what you're given. But thanks Bro... At least I can keep an eye out for those specs.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby James Perrett » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:03 pm

Rockwool RW3 or Rocksil RS60 are the most popular ones. For some purposes you can go for lower density like Rockwool RWA45 and for others you might want a higher density like RS100 but for panels the 60kg/m3 density seems to be the best compromise. If you can mount them so that they are spaced slightly away from the wall they become effective down to a slightly lower frequency.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:16 pm

Or for corner traps, a stack of triangular pieces filling the corner with a 12"-18" front face are even more effective ('cos the cut edges are more absorbent than the treated faces and 'cos the effective depth is greater).
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:20 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Or for corner traps, a stack of triangular pieces filling the corner with a 12"-18" front face are even more effective ('cos the cut edges are more absorbent than the treated faces and 'cos the effective depth is greater).

Yup! As taught to me by Studio Support Gnome!
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Wonks » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:25 pm

If you struggle to get rockwool of a suitable density, glass fiber is far more widely used in the US for bass and broadband traps than in the UK. Similar issues with loose fibers causing irritation and similar remedies utilised, but the absorption performance is comparable. (US spelling of 'fibre' used).
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:28 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:Or for corner traps, a stack of triangular pieces filling the corner with a 12"-18" front face are even more effective ('cos the cut edges are more absorbent than the treated faces and 'cos the effective depth is greater).

Yup! As taught to me by Studio Support Gnome!

Me too, SSC's, or to give them their full title "Studiotips Super Chunks". :thumbup:

Glass fibre is not as kind to your body as Rockwool mineral fibre (it's more likely to cause irritation and so on) but no reason why it should be less effective AFAIK.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Eddy Deegan » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:59 am

blinddrew wrote:what you're after is RW3, 45 - 60kg/m3 is the density you want to be looking for. Or at least I hope it is because it's on my shopping list... :)

James Perrett wrote: for panels the 60kg/m3 density seems to be the best compromise. If you can mount them so that they are spaced slightly away from the wall they become effective down to a slightly lower frequency.

Checking my notes, Max was of similar opinion - 60kg/m3 was the magic number, at least in my case. Of the five bass traps in the plan he formulated for me, 3 are spaced from the wall and 2 are thick enough (due to a good window indent depth) to not need it.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Martin Walker » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:21 pm

+1 for 60Kg/m3

After installing half a dozen RealTraps after reviewing them for SOS years back, I still needed more trapping, so I bought some 45Kg/m3 rockwool that I assembled into 4' by 2' by 1' megachunks, sprayed with the recommended dilute PVA adhesive (to stop the fibres shedding), and then simply wrapped them in butter muslin.

They made a very real difference, but have sagged a bit since. Mine were all floor-mounted, so if you're considering wall-mounted traps then 60Kg/m3 makes a lot more sense.


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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Wonks » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:53 pm

*kg/m³
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:32 pm

Martin Walker wrote:+1 for 60Kg/m3

After installing half a dozen RealTraps after reviewing them for SOS years back, I still needed more trapping, so I bought some 45Kg/m3 rockwool that I assembled into 4' by 2' by 1' megachunks, sprayed with the recommended dilute PVA adhesive (to stop the fibres shedding), and then simply wrapped them in butter muslin.

They made a very real difference, but have sagged a bit since. Mine were all floor-mounted, so if you're considering wall-mounted traps then 60Kg/m3 makes a lot more sense.


Martin
Hi Martin
I have a roll of what i believe is mineral wool. Well not a full roll but darn close. It was left over from building work we had done a few years back. Its too expensive to simply dump so I mailed the manufacturer to ask what it was and explained what I need it for. They replied after a while and said they wouldnt recommend for sound treatment and sent a link for some other stuff but Id need to order it online. So I might have to simply buy those rock wool slabs or got to Thomann who do a good range of actual sound treatment products. You know if my test mic would just get here soon I could test what i have using the REW software.
oh....quick question guys. Theres a builder doing work next door. Nice lad from England so i was talking to him just now about what Im at. He wasnt sure of course about sound treatment but....as far as making a light weight frame was concerned he showed me the aluminum studding they use now. Weighs nothing. But would an aluminum frame on your absorber defeat the purpose due to reflections? I could probably cover the frame with fabric. I dont have a pic but I could probably send one.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:33 pm

TNGator wrote:
Martin Walker wrote:+1 for 60Kg/m3

After installing half a dozen RealTraps after reviewing them for SOS years back, I still needed more trapping, so I bought some 45Kg/m3 rockwool that I assembled into 4' by 2' by 1' megachunks, sprayed with the recommended dilute PVA adhesive (to stop the fibres shedding), and then simply wrapped them in butter muslin.

They made a very real difference, but have sagged a bit since. Mine were all floor-mounted, so if you're considering wall-mounted traps then 60Kg/m3 makes a lot more sense.


Martin
Hi Martin
I have a roll of what i believe is mineral wool. Well not a full roll but darn close. It was left over from building work we had done a few years back. Its too expensive to simply dump so I mailed the manufacturer to ask what it was and explained what I need it for. They replied after a while and said they wouldnt recommend for sound treatment and sent a link for some other stuff but Id need to order it online. So I might have to simply buy those rock wool slabs or got to Thomann who do a good range of actual sound treatment products. You know if my test mic would just get here soon I could test what i have using the REW software.
oh....quick question guys. Theres a builder doing work next door. Nice lad from England so i was talking to him just now about what Im at. He wasnt sure of course about sound treatment but....as far as making a light weight frame was concerned he showed me the aluminum studding they use now. Weighs nothing. But would an aluminum frame on your absorber defeat the purpose due to reflections? I could probably cover the frame with fabric. I dont have a pic but I could probably send one.

Ah...the rockwool Im looking at here is only 38K. Too light? If I used two slabs does that double it up? https://www.goodwins.ie/products/Rockwo ... filter_set[]=1413,1451
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:12 pm

TNGator wrote:But would an aluminum frame on your absorber defeat the purpose due to reflections?

Not as long as you're talking thin metal corner pieces and struts, or panels with a lot of holes/slots in it. Most of the commercial traps use metal framing, such as these Realtraps MiniTrap panels:

Image

H
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:44 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
TNGator wrote:But would an aluminum frame on your absorber defeat the purpose due to reflections?

Not as long as you're talking thin metal corner pieces and struts, or panels with a lot of holes/slots in it. Most of the commercial traps use metal framing, such as these Realtraps MiniTrap panels:

Image

H
Yes very similar to the pic Hugh. Apparently builders are using these now instead of 2x4 studs. They have a mesh type design. Some spray paint and you could have something very cool n trendy lie the ones you've shown here. .
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Martin Walker » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:34 am

TNGator wrote:Ah...the rockwool Im looking at here is only 38K. Too light? If I used two slabs does that double it up? https://www.goodwins.ie/products/Rockwo ... filter_set[]=1413,1451

38Kg/m3 would still provide some absorption., but is indeed a little on the light side. You would get significantly more effective results with 60Kg/m3, and that would be easier to place within the frames you're discussing without sagging and flopping about.

Yes, you can double up two thicknesses of 50mm to give exactly the same effect as one 100mm slab, but once again a single slab of 60Kg/m3 will be easier to work with and should cost the same or even very slightly cheaper - it's largely the amount of material that determines the cost.


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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:39 am

Martin Walker wrote:
TNGator wrote:Ah...the rockwool Im looking at here is only 38K. Too light? If I used two slabs does that double it up? https://www.goodwins.ie/products/Rockwo ... filter_set[]=1413,1451

38Kg/m3 would still provide some absorption., but is indeed a little on the light side. You would get significantly more effective results with 60Kg/m3, and that would be easier to place within the frames you're discussing without sagging and flopping about.

Yes, you can double up two thicknesses of 50mm to give exactly the same effect as one 100mm slab, but once again a single slab of 60Kg/m3 will be easier to work with and should cost the same or even very slightly cheaper - it's largely the amount of material that determines the cost.


Martin
Yeah Ive noticed its the wood seems to be the most expensive. You want nice decorative wood not old pallets from the warehouse. But...that metal studding I mentioned is cheap enough. And you the funny thing? Thomann have a set of 12 smallish panels and the cost isnt that much more.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Martin Walker » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:42 pm

TNGator wrote:And you the funny thing? Thomann have a set of 12 smallish panels and the cost isnt that much more.

Yep, economies of scale do often mean that companies who manufacture a lot of acoustic treatment components can do so at prices only slightly above taking the DIY approach.

Sad but true! ;)


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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Wonks » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:52 pm

TNGator wrote: And you the funny thing? Thomann have a set of 12 smallish panels and the cost isnt that much more.
Can you link to the ones you mean? There are a lot of light panels out there that are only really good for high frequencies.
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