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Tackling room resonances

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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:36 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:REW is great, I have it but you are measuring the bass region and wondering why your mid/high frequency absorber panels are not making any difference. No surprise that they make little or no difference ;) . If you set the frequency limits to 300-3000Hz you'd see a difference and, hopefully, you'll hear a difference too.

Don't worry about an imperfect room, as Hugh says the mid/high absorbers help to improve stereo image and tonal balance in the mid and high frequency ranges, in an ideal word they would be symmetrical around the mixing position but if you can't do that just do your best* with the room you have you should still hear an improvement.

*good headphones are the standard means for checking mixes in an imperfect mix environment.
Hi Sam. Not sure if this was for me but Im testing different ranges not just the base frequencies. 'll keep testing my absorbers and move up the frequency range. Hopefully I'll find they at least work in the upper ranges. Although the advice Im getting on the forum is that Im probably not experiencing any problems in the upper range. apparently small rooms get problems with lower frequencies. Hence the importance to concentrate on getting bass traps and not wall panels.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:45 pm

My understanding is that it's not quite as simple as that, an untreated room will have problems across the whole range but the bass is hardest top deal with.

TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:Given that a couple of duvets can make a significant difference can you post some pics of your DIY traps in the room? It seems a shame to righty them of after the money and effort and there may be other reasons why they don't see to be working as you expected.

Hi Sam. I didn't test the duvet just yet. But yes that is on the menu. You see my plan is to try out this REW software I downloaded starting with a naked room then bring in the DIY stuff and re-test. Im hoping to see what DIY stuff works, doesnt work, kinda works etc. My home made absorbers might work if i select a higher range of frequencies in the REW sweep. At present Im testing from about 40Hz to 300Hz. I just picked that range arbitrarily.
Now my panels may not need to be ditched but I might have to put deeper sides on them. I really made them too shallow which was a silly goof on my part. Im concerned about the weight of the panels and wood can be very heavy. That guy on YT who tested bathroom towels? Tried it. Didnt make a blind bit of difference to the graph. I'll keep you updated Sam. Bank holiday weekend here. So...pub :)

I was replying to that particular post, forgive me if i missed some reference to wider range testing (I can't take time to re-read the whole thread just now). If you had no treatment in the mid/high range you would almost certainly find stereo image and detail compromised but, yes, the bass end is most troublesome in small rooms and, quite likely impossible to fully control hence the fact that the advice is directed that way.

FWIW my own room sounds pretty good and works for me as a (compact/bijou) recording mixing and rehearsal space but the bass end is going to be a bit wayward. I used REW when I first installed the treatment but have now moved on to just enjoying my 'studio' for what it is, i.e. not Abbey Rd but a nice place to play, record and listen to music. It's not perfect (far from it) but it serves my needs (and for mixing headphones let me check the low end for any obvious anomalies).
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:27 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:My understanding is that it's not quite as simple as that, an untreated room will have problems across the whole range but the bass is hardest top deal with.

TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:Given that a couple of duvets can make a significant difference can you post some pics of your DIY traps in the room? It seems a shame to righty them of after the money and effort and there may be other reasons why they don't see to be working as you expected.

Hi Sam. I didn't test the duvet just yet. But yes that is on the menu. You see my plan is to try out this REW software I downloaded starting with a naked room then bring in the DIY stuff and re-test. Im hoping to see what DIY stuff works, doesnt work, kinda works etc. My home made absorbers might work if i select a higher range of frequencies in the REW sweep. At present Im testing from about 40Hz to 300Hz. I just picked that range arbitrarily.
Now my panels may not need to be ditched but I might have to put deeper sides on them. I really made them too shallow which was a silly goof on my part. Im concerned about the weight of the panels and wood can be very heavy. That guy on YT who tested bathroom towels? Tried it. Didnt make a blind bit of difference to the graph. I'll keep you updated Sam. Bank holiday weekend here. So...pub :)

I was replying to that particular post, forgive me if i missed some reference to wider range testing (I can't take time to re-read the whole thread just now). If you had no treatment in the mid/high range you would almost certainly find stereo image and detail compromised but, yes, the bass end is most troublesome in small rooms and, quite likely impossible to fully control hence the fact that the advice is directed that way.

FWIW my own room sounds pretty good and works for me as a (compact/bijou) recording mixing and rehearsal space but the bass end is going to be a bit wayward. I used REW when I first installed the treatment but have now moved on to just enjoying my 'studio' for what it is, i.e. not Abbey Rd but a nice place to play, record and listen to music. It's not perfect (far from it) but it serves my needs (and for mixing headphones let me check the low end for any obvious anomalies).

Hey no worries Sam.. All tips and advice greatly appreciated. I guess at the end of the day what we are all trying to avoid is a situation where our music sounds great at home....but the demo we sound to a publisher sounds awful on their system. I suppose the good ol car test is as good a test as any. I often wonder if the guys who are putting stuff on Reverb Nation etc are using pro studios. The quality is incredible.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:39 pm

:thumbup:
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:43 am

Sam Spoons wrote::thumbup:

Have a look at this Sam. Very complicated, very techy BUT... the important DUMMYS bit is right near the end. If your room is less than 17 by 23 then you have to concentrate on the low end. And Ive no doubt NO ONE here is in a room that big.
Go to 5 min 52. Well I guess that puts that to bed. Bass traps it is :)
Happy FFFFFFFFRiday Sam
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Martin Walker » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:42 am

TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote::thumbup:

Have a look at this Sam. Very complicated, very techy BUT... the important DUMMYS bit is right near the end. If your room is less than 17 by 23 then you have to concentrate on the low end. And Ive no doubt NO ONE here is in a room that big.
Go to 5 min 52. Well I guess that puts that to bed. Bass traps it is :)
Happy FFFFFFFFRiday Sam
Xave

Er, did you intend to add a link to your post TNGator? :beamup:


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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Mike Stranks » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:51 am

Martin Walker wrote:
TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote::thumbup:

Have a look at this Sam. Very complicated, very techy BUT... the important DUMMYS bit is right near the end. If your room is less than 17 by 23 then you have to concentrate on the low end. And Ive no doubt NO ONE here is in a room that big.
Go to 5 min 52. Well I guess that puts that to bed. Bass traps it is :)
Happy FFFFFFFFRiday Sam
Xave

Er, did you intend to add a link to your post TNGator? :beamup:


Martin

I've PM'd him Martin to say it's gone missing...
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:37 pm

TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote::thumbup:

Have a look at this Sam. Very complicated, very techy BUT... the important DUMMYS bit is right near the end. If your room is less than 17 by 23 then you have to concentrate on the low end. And Ive no doubt NO ONE here is in a room that big.
Go to 5 min 52. Well I guess that puts that to bed. Bass traps it is :)
Happy FFFFFFFFRiday Sam
Xave

Obviously haven't seen the vid yet but I don't recall saying you didn't need/shouldn't install bass traps (I have three fairly big ones in my 4 x 4 metre room) just that you do ned to treat the mid/high end too. Effective bass treatment may be impossible, again that's no reason not to attempt it, but bass traps alone (even if effective) will not give you a good sounding room.

Do post that link, you have piqued my curiosity now :thumbup:
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Dennis J Wilkins » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:35 pm

Hello,

Haven't the time to read all posts in this thread, being buried with testing (beta and for product reviews) and trying to wrap up an article for SOS that has been mentioned in other SOS forums (not sure of the final title for the article, but the working title is Studio Acoustics and Room EQ Wizard). I've seen several comments here about small rooms and low end - all true! Low end is impossible to truly flatten using acoustic treatment alone since even 50 Hz requires something like five feet of rock wool or equivalent to begin effective absorption!

As indicated in my April article, Studio SOS: Home Studio Upgrade I use software room correction (ARC 2.5) to tame some big peaks and dips below a few hundred Hertz since I have about all the bass absorbers I can fit in my small room. Systems like ARC and Sonarworks Reference 4 do help to really flatten the frequency response up to a few hundred Hertz, but the other problem in a small room is decay time, which EQ/phase correction cannot directly affect. However, removing a typical low resonant peak , which may be 10-20 dB above the midrange level even with some bass trapping, will also help reduce the decay time at that frequency since it won't be starting at a boosted level.

Watch for the upcoming article (not sure when, but likely in two installments). BTW, REW 5.19 is the current version and works well, but 5.20 is coming soon with some improvements which I will describe. It is an incredible tool, but can take a bit of effort to gain proficiency in its use and interpretation of results. I'm trying to provide some simple steps for making measurements and figuring out what they mean.

cheers
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:48 pm

Martin Walker wrote:
TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote::thumbup:

Have a look at this Sam. Very complicated, very techy BUT... the important DUMMYS bit is right near the end. If your room is less than 17 by 23 then you have to concentrate on the low end. And Ive no doubt NO ONE here is in a room that big.
Go to 5 min 52. Well I guess that puts that to bed. Bass traps it is :)
Happy FFFFFFFFRiday Sam
Xave

Er, did you intend to add a link to your post TNGator? :beamup:


Martin

Ooops...sorry y'all. My goof.

Link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-iFsWUrOhs
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:53 pm

Ta, will watch tomorrow when I have (hopefully) decent WiFi.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby tbozaudio » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:35 am

I have a very small tracking room. I am also a drummer.... argh. Fought with room issues for a long time. Tried everything I could to get a decent sound. I finally came to the conclusion that I will never be able to get anything good while tracking and embraced the fact that I needed to approach things very differently. I identified the “nasties” ie, SPL, Standing waves, comb filtering, phase, terrible reflections etc.... pretty much every component talkative works against you! To try to compensate for all this is pretty much literally impossible.

I approached things from a different perspective. Make the room disappear. The thought is very much like a green screen in the video world. I can always add room simulations in combinations with mild reverb to create different rooms.

I framed a 9x9x9 room with 2x4’s and added a bass trap space in one corner of the wall. Then I researched what absorption material I thought would work to deal with all the low end and SPL. Ended up with 3.5” insul-shield and went wall to ceiling with it. I have read so many articles that say that dead room this and that, but I was beside myself with how my drums responded. Great attack, totally natural decay and super warm and punchy.
The best thing is that I can totally envelope my kit into any room sim and make it sound very good. The insul-shield is a semi-rigid panel, so it’s not stifling at all. It gives me incredible control and eq responsive
Throughout the spectrum with no appreciable bumps or dips. Now, I will have to say that I took into consideration the preamps I have which are super clear, high output and very low noise. The transparent preamps works well with the warmth and punchlines of my tracking space. The room has turned out to be a lifesaver.

Not saying this is for everyone. I can just say, I’ve never had such ease with mic placement, very nice response from the kit and total predictable outcomes before.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby blinddrew » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:08 am

I wonder if we might add this thread to the useful information archive?
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:25 am

tbozaudio wrote:I have a very small tracking room. I am also a drummer.... argh. Fought with room issues for a long time. Tried everything I could to get a decent sound. I finally came to the conclusion that I will never be able to get anything good while tracking and embraced the fact that I needed to approach things very differently. I identified the “nasties” ie, SPL, Standing waves, comb filtering, phase, terrible reflections etc.... pretty much every component talkative works against you! To try to compensate for all this is pretty much literally impossible.

I approached things from a different perspective. Make the room disappear. The thought is very much like a green screen in the video world. I can always add room simulations in combinations with mild reverb to create different rooms.

I framed a 9x9x9 room with 2x4’s and added a bass trap space in one corner of the wall. Then I researched what absorption material I thought would work to deal with all the low end and SPL. Ended up with 3.5” insul-shield and went wall to ceiling with it. I have read so many articles that say that dead room this and that, but I was beside myself with how my drums responded. Great attack, totally natural decay and super warm and punchy.
The best thing is that I can totally envelope my kit into any room sim and make it sound very good. The insul-shield is a semi-rigid panel, so it’s not stifling at all. It gives me incredible control and eq responsive
Throughout the spectrum with no appreciable bumps or dips. Now, I will have to say that I took into consideration the preamps I have which are super clear, high output and very low noise. The transparent preamps works well with the warmth and punchlines of my tracking space. The room has turned out to be a lifesaver.

Not saying this is for everyone. I can just say, I’ve never had such ease with mic placement, very nice response from the kit and total predictable outcomes before.
Wow...thats a lot of work bro but well done. Sadly I cant do anything on such a major scale in my room. It's a walkthrough room with two doors and a fireplace jutting out on one wall. Plus...it is my living room. But great job man.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:40 pm

Well having tried a sweep using make shift DIY traps made from mineral wool (from a roll) I can confirm it is absolutely useless. I did a scan from 40Hz to 500Hz and compared the two graphs. The mineral wool did nothing at all. So rather than buy rock wool and go to all that effort of putting wood etc together.....Im just going to buy a couple of traps from Thomann. Well Im glad i ran the tests though because at least it puts the whole thing to bed. Just for kicks though, Im now going to try the hanging duvet trick and see how that goes.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:00 pm

TNGator wrote:Well having tried a sweep using make shift DIY traps made from mineral wool (from a roll) I can confirm it is absolutely useless. I did a scan from 40Hz to 500Hz and compared the two graphs. The mineral wool did nothing at all.

I've no idea how many, or how large and deep, your makeshift traps we're, but others have already pointed out that controlling low frequencies with rockwool traps is not easy, and to be effective they need to be REALLY BIG AND DEEP.

So rather than buy rock wool and go to all that effort of putting wood etc together.....Im just going to buy a couple of traps from Thomann.

I dont know the Thomann traps of which you speak, but my advice would be: buy with care! There are an awful lot of companies offering 'bass traps' that perform very poorly. Check the absorption coefficient numbers for frequencies in the range you need to control to ensure the panel will do what you expect...
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:26 pm

If you are testing your 50mm DIY panels you mentioned earlier I refer you back to several references earlier in the thread that say thin lightweight panels will have little or no effect on bass frequencies but, as long as they are not too thin or lightweight they will do useful things in the mid range and above. There is no point in measuring 20-500 Hz to see what difference 50mm thick panels are making 'cos they ain't making any.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:52 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
TNGator wrote:Well having tried a sweep using make shift DIY traps made from mineral wool (from a roll) I can confirm it is absolutely useless. I did a scan from 40Hz to 500Hz and compared the two graphs. The mineral wool did nothing at all.

I've no idea how many, or how large and deep, your makeshift traps we're, but others have already pointed out that controlling low frequencies with rockwool traps is not easy, and to be effective they need to be REALLY BIG AND DEEP.

So rather than buy rock wool and go to all that effort of putting wood etc together.....Im just going to buy a couple of traps from Thomann.

I dont know the Thomann traps of which you speak, but my advice would be: buy with care! There are an awful lot of companies offering 'bass traps' that perform very poorly. Check the absorption coefficient numbers for frequencies in the range you need to control to ensure the panel will do what you expect...

What I tried was about 40cm deep by about 30cm wide. I would have thought that size would be effective. Yeah some of the Thomann stuff a coefficient rating but other models dont which is annoying. You would think that all items would carry this rating as standard procedure. The Absorb Coeff is probably the only thing you can really go on.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby TNGator » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:57 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:If you are testing your 50mm DIY panels you mentioned earlier I refer you back to several references earlier in the thread that say thin lightweight panels will have little or no effect on bass frequencies but, as long as they are not too thin or lightweight they will do useful things in the mid range and above. There is no point in measuring 20-500 Hz to see what difference 50mm thick panels are making 'cos they ain't making any.

Hi Sam. No these were different. About 40cm deep. Do you know the funny thing? Just for a laugh. I put a 2 tier stand in the corner put some objects on it to make a make shift diffuser. And the darn thing did a better job than anything else I tried. The graph was really tamed. I couldn't believe the difference. So maybe some diffusion will help just as good as bass traps.
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Re: Tackling room resonances

Postby Wonks » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:56 am

With that method, you are probably just moving a lot of the problem nodes to another area of the room. But if it gets you the results you want at the listening position, then it's worth experimenting along those lines.

Diffusers stuck against flat walls are unlikely to do much for bass issues; it's the fact that you've effectively changed the shape of the room that you need to work with.
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