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Tackling room resonances

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Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:17 pm
by Sam Spoons
TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:
TNGator wrote:PS...forgot to mention Mike...I was avoiding using headphones to mix but then I noticed you mentioned "open cans" not closed ones. Im guessing the open cans let in a little of the room?

Open cans don't really let any room in because you are not exciting the room but they do sound more natural.
Ah. Yeah I dont mind cans when recording or lets say listening to educational vids when trying to hear the effect of an EQ or compressor. But i couldnt mix with them. Id feel closed in and claustrophobic.

Nobody is suggesting you mix exclusively on cans, just that you can use them to check the bass.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:34 am
by TNGator
Sam Spoons wrote:
TNGator wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:
TNGator wrote:PS...forgot to mention Mike...I was avoiding using headphones to mix but then I noticed you mentioned "open cans" not closed ones. Im guessing the open cans let in a little of the room?

Open cans don't really let any room in because you are not exciting the room but they do sound more natural.
Ah. Yeah I dont mind cans when recording or lets say listening to educational vids when trying to hear the effect of an EQ or compressor. But i couldnt mix with them. Id feel closed in and claustrophobic.

Nobody is suggesting you mix exclusively on cans, just that you can use them to check the bass.
Worth a shot. The car test or Ipod test will be needed in the end to check the sound outside of the room.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:27 am
by Mike Stranks
TNGator wrote:
Mike Stranks wrote:Have you ever tried good open-back headphones? All headphones are not the same... :lol:
No Mike, I only have a pair of closed ones. They are great for recording but Ive never tried open ones. Might be worth investing. Like closed ones, are these designed for studio use as opposed to everyday hi fi headphones?

Yes; there are many different brands, models and prices of open and semi-open aimed at the studio market. People here who've commented use various makes and models, but some 'firm favourites' are:

AKG K701/702/712
Sennheiser HD650

and others that will doubtless be mentioned!

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:19 am
by Sam Spoons
TNGator wrote:Worth a shot. The car test or Ipod test will be needed in the end to check the sound outside of the room.

Yes indeed :thumbup:

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:39 pm
by TNGator
Now this is interesting. So i was watching a vid done by Bobby Owsinski (apparantly a well known mixer etc). He was addressing a college in Canada and talking about home studios. As part of the usual DIY suspects such as Rockwoll he also mentioned everyday carpet underlay. Does it work? Well its not something that's expensive at all so I guess worth a shot. So i was looking at a web site here in Dublin of carpet suppliers and looked their underlay stuff. Have a look at his. Its a product called Acoustalay. And it says in its specs it has a 19dB reduction. It appears to be a product to install if perhaps you live above someone and dont want noise disturbing them.
Now, at only 20 euro for a roll certainly worth a shot. But should we avoid a product that boats sound proofing as opposed to sound treatment. After all, sound proofing and sound treatment are very different animals. I'd never heard of this product before. Anyone here ever come across this?
https://www.ie.screwfix.com/polyolefin- ... y-15m.html
I then found this site in the UK also selling the acoustalay product.
https://www.soundreduction.co.uk/sectors/domestic/

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:00 pm
by Sam Spoons
Sounds like it might work as a 'limp mass membrane' but you'd need to check prices of 'proper' stuff.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:08 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
I doubt it has enough mass to be very effective as a LMM, although it might work in multiple layers...

I imagine it's really designed to attenuate direct mechanical vibration from footfall noise, rather than deal with energy from acoustic air movement.

H

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:26 pm
by Sam Spoons
:thumbup:

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:58 am
by TNGator
Hugh Robjohns wrote:I doubt it has enough mass to be very effective as a LMM, although it might work in multiple layers...

I imagine it's really designed to attenuate direct mechanical vibration from footfall noise, rather than deal with energy from acoustic air movement.

H
:thumbup: I think so...it does seem to be geared towards footfall etc. But for 20 euro a roll it might be worth the experiment.and as you say I can layer it to get say 10cm or such. I'll keep y'all posted.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:21 am
by Wonks
Note that it has a waterproof membrane layer. That means that sound waves won't pass through it like it does through open celled foam, so multiple layers will not be anything like as effective as rockwool. For bass traps, you can normally get away with one impermeable layer (as long as it is free to move), but I'd have thought that once you get to two layers, especially if pressed together, you won't get any further worthwhile improvement by adding more.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:19 pm
by TNGator
Wonks wrote:Note that it has a waterproof membrane layer. That means that sound waves won't pass through it like it does through open celled foam, so multiple layers will not be anything like as effective as rockwool. For bass traps, you can normally get away with one impermeable layer (as long as it is free to move), but I'd have thought that once you get to two layers, especially if pressed together, you won't get any further worthwhile improvement by adding more.

Good point. Which brings us back to the question of sound proofing versus sound treatment. Well it was worth looking into I guess. We can only experiment unless your lucky enough to be qualified in acoustics sciences. And i can barely spell those words.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:42 pm
by James Perrett
The right sort of carpet underlay could have its uses but it needs careful thought. I've used the underlay made from recycled car tyres in my studio under the floor joists and also where the walls meet the floor. This was after seeing how the old fashioned felt underlay was used by the company who built my previous studio.

In previous builds we had used neoprene sheet in those places but the underlay was cheaper than neoprene sheet so I thought it was worth a try.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:19 pm
by TNGator
James Perrett wrote:The right sort of carpet underlay could have its uses but it needs careful thought. I've used the underlay made from recycled car tyres in my studio under the floor joists and also where the walls meet the floor. This was after seeing how the old fashioned felt underlay was used by the company who built my previous studio.

In previous builds we had used neoprene sheet in those places but the underlay was cheaper than neoprene sheet so I thought it was worth a try.
Is that the multi coloured stuff? I have that under the carpet in the front room. It looks like someone chopped up bits of runner and compacted them together with glue.
I saw something on the AIKEA site which might be useful. A large mesh laundry bag. I have some spare mineral wool but its on a roll. Hard to work with and get into a frame. Shoved down into a large mesh bag it would be easy to experiment with. The bag is only a fiver. Cant go wrong there. Two of them and i could test them in two corners. If all else fails...I can always just go and get the pack of rockwool slabs. At the end of the day its the one product everyone agrees is a very good DIY option.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 pm
by blinddrew
All being well I'll be able to confirm on the rockwool front in about a month or so. Maybe a couple of months to allow for 'learning experiences'.
But frankly, if Max says to use RW3 rockwool then that's what I'm going to use! :D

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 pm
by James Perrett
TNGator wrote:Is that the multi coloured stuff? I have that under the carpet in the front room.

This is the stuff I used

https://www.tradepriced.co.uk/duralay_s ... erlay.html

It seems to help cut out most external noise apart from low flying Chinooks.

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:36 pm
by Sam Spoons
TNGator wrote:I saw something on the AIKEA site which might be useful. A large mesh laundry bag. I have some spare mineral wool but its on a roll. Hard to work with and get into a frame. Shoved down into a large mesh bag it would be easy to experiment with. The bag is only a fiver. Cant go wrong there. Two of them and i could test them in two corners.

Why bother? you don't need the mesh bag for anything other than cosmetics, leaving the insulation in the plastic bag it came in will be just as effective at low frequencies. Just shove a couple of bags the corners and see if the room sounds better. :thumbup:

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:10 am
by TNGator
James Perrett wrote:
TNGator wrote:Is that the multi coloured stuff? I have that under the carpet in the front room.

This is the stuff I used

https://www.tradepriced.co.uk/duralay_s ... erlay.html

It seems to help cut out most external noise apart from low flying Chinooks.

:thumbup:

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:28 pm
by TNGator
Sam Spoons wrote:
TNGator wrote:I saw something on the AIKEA site which might be useful. A large mesh laundry bag. I have some spare mineral wool but its on a roll. Hard to work with and get into a frame. Shoved down into a large mesh bag it would be easy to experiment with. The bag is only a fiver. Cant go wrong there. Two of them and i could test them in two corners.

Why bother? you don't need the mesh bag for anything other than cosmetics, leaving the insulation in the plastic bag it came in will be just as effective at low frequencies. Just shove a couple of bags the corners and see if the room sounds better. :thumbup:
To be honest I thought the plastic would simply bounce all frequencies back. I didnt think anything would get through. Quick question. As its most likely the low frequencies that cause problems, when looking at a room sweep graph, should i concentrate only on frequencies below a certain value. Say everything below 400 Hz for example. Or even from 6 or 700 down maybe?

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:23 am
by Martin Walker
TNGator wrote:To be honest I thought the plastic would simply bounce all frequencies back. I didnt think anything would get through.

Imagine yourself standing on the other side of that plastic - what frequencies would you still hear? Most of them, apart from the very high ones ;)


Martin

Re: Tackling room resonances

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:44 am
by TNGator
Martin Walker wrote:
TNGator wrote:To be honest I thought the plastic would simply bounce all frequencies back. I didnt think anything would get through.

Imagine yourself standing on the other side of that plastic - what frequencies would you still hear? Most of them, apart from the very high ones ;)


Martin
Cant say I would have known the answer to that one bro. Ah so much to learn. Do you use a diffuser...no..why? Your room is too small. Do i put stuff on the wall? No, its the corners are the problem. Theres a guy on a website called Acousticfields.com says its a myth that the corners are the problem. You need to treat the front wall. And of course you could always treat the side walls. AAAAAAHHHHHH
Im officially starting to go insane regarding this stuff. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: