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Second set of monitors, which ones?

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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:33 am

akaspeedy wrote:...the kh310 look great, sealed cabinets as well, but are a little dated now....

I'm sure you'll be very happy with the Hedds -- and I suspect you were always going to buy those anyway -- but I have to pull you up on the 'dated' comment. Good engineering doesn't date!

Yes, the KH310 has been around for a little while, and was itself an evolution of the hugely successful KH300 which was around for quite a while before that. But the point is that when a design is very well engineered and gets the job done reliably it becomes highly regarded and tends to stay in production for a long time. The old adage of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' applies.

Similarly, the ATC SCM100A has been in production since the 80s with only small engineering tweaks along the way, and is still rated as one of the best three-way monitors of its size on the planet.... I don't hear of top studios saying 'no thanks, it's a little dated!' Demand is as strong as ever.

Sure, the KH310 doesn't have a linearising plug-in option, or DSP fudgery... it's just properly engineered in the traditional analogue way, as it's amazingly detailed published specifications make very clear. In contrast, it's interesting to note how much technical detail is missing from the Hedd specs... food for thought! That's not to say that the Hedd is not a great speaker, of course -- Phil Ward was very thorough and complementary about it, and I trust his reviews completely -- just that the two companies have very different approaches.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/hedd-type-20
Frustratingly, there is a lot of 'fashion' in monitor speakers -- a popularity contest to always have 'the latest thing' driven by shouty 'reviews' on GS that always claim the new speaker is AWESOME. But so many of those 'popular' speakers with rave reviews actually don't last the course and disappear from the industry quickly, only to be replaced by the next new latest AWESOME miracle speaker.... Go figure.

H
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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:11 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Good engineering doesn't date!

H

Indeed! Witness the fact how long some of Sennheiser's and Beyer's microphones have been in production.
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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Hrodulf » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:11 pm

I think the hard truth many of the brand crusaders on forums don't want to understand is that nowadays there are VERY few truly bad monitors. It's hard to find even the mediocre ones if you stick to popular brands.

Too bad that headphones are not near as mature of a product.
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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Martin Walker » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:33 pm

Hrodulf wrote:I think the hard truth many of the brand crusaders on forums don't want to understand is that nowadays there are VERY few truly bad monitors. It's hard to find even the mediocre ones if you stick to popular brands.

Too bad that headphones are not near as mature of a product.

Not too bad for you though Hrodulf ;)

And long may your success last! :clap:


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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby hz37 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:13 pm

I mix in a lot of different studio's, and one always develops a certain fondness for speakers. I would definitely listen to Neumann speakers within your price range. PMC and PSI speakers also come to mind. These three brands of monitors are (in my probably very biased opinion) also more forgiving sounding than your garden variety Genelec, Yamaha or similar speakers.

Have fun!

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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Gone To Lunch » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:41 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
(re:getting another pair of monitors)

However, if you're working in a spare room or garage etc and these new speakers are going to sit alongside similar 'main monitors', you'd be wasting your money... and probably degrade the monitoring quality of your mains boxes in the process!

H

I am surprised by this.

Hugh are you saying that a second adjacent pair of speakers will degrade the signals of the other speakers ?

How does it happen ?
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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:29 pm

Gone To Lunch wrote:Hugh are you saying that a second adjacent pair of speakers will degrade the signals of the other speakers ?

Yes, potentially.

Most people place their 'second' monitors right next to their 'main' monitors, but that then effectively extends the baffle widths of both, completely messing up the stereo imaging and, possibly even altering the spectral balance in an unhelpful way. It's just not a good idea -- especially if you're splashing out a grand or two to benefit from properly designed monitors in the first place. Kind of defeats the whole object... in much the same way as partnering high-quality monitors with a cheapo subwoofer (that dumps harmonic distortion products all across the clean main monitors' midrange!)!

The other issue is that the outside pair of monitors will be more widely spaced, and thus the stereo image will be 'grander' and more impressive, but also potentially misleading. I remember some speaker comparison tests I was involved with at the Beeb years back, and whichever monitors were placed on the outside always won out in the user preferences data!

There's also a school of thought that argues that the presence of (particularly unpowered) secondary speakers in the room tend to resonate and react, which could also have an audibly counterproductive effect.
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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Martin Walker » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:50 pm

I suspect Hugh is referring to acoustic reflections - so any of us have problems with large monitor screens interfering with the audio from our loudspeakers (it's difficult to get them both within visual range yet 'behind' the monitors).

In a similar way, if you place a second set of loudspeakers alongside the first you'll probably undo all the clever rounded edge techniques that the monitor manufacturers use to avoid hard reflections off their cabinets, and generate a set of unwanted early reflections that interfere with the clarity of your stereo image.

EDIT: Hugh can obviously type faster than me, although I'm encouraged that I did correctly surmise his concerns ;)


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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:50 pm

Martin Walker wrote:I suspect Hugh is referring to acoustic reflections...

Yep, but not just reflections; when sound waves spread across a flat surface (like an adjacent speaker baffle or computer screen) and reaches its edges the sound waves then re-radiate in new directions due to refraction/diffraction. In effect, these edges then behave as new sound radiating sources, and the sound energy from these interferes with that of the real drivers to create all manner of unwanted problems.

This is indeed the reason why most modern monitor speakers have rounded edges, specifically to minimise this effect.

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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby akaspeedy » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:17 pm

Both sets will be at different heights with the sonodynes moving slightly further to the sides and a about 8-10 inches closer and lower, whilst the new monitors will be sat on the desk....I have the glorious workbench and the tv which I use for my main laptop monitor is too big to have them side by side!

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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby alexpen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:49 pm

Producing club music I had a longer trip in the last 2 years, listened to almost everything below 4k euros:
KH310, all Amphions (except of two18), PSI A17, D-80 from KS digital, Footprint 01, Adam S3V, ...

KH310 + Amphion One15 or PSI A17 would be an absolute killer combo. Adam S3V is also very good, if you're fine with Adam twitters.

For me I ended with Footprint 01. After 5 months I love these monitors even more.

I definitely suggest to listen to monitors in your room with your ears.
And yes, I also can confirm, I had a wonderful experience with KMR Germany.

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Re: Second set of monitors, which ones?

Postby The Elf » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:11 pm

AE22s reveal oodles of detail, and are mid-range responsive without being 'shouty'. They have an adequate, un-hyped bass extension. If they have a bit of mid-range lift then it's not something that bothers me - I don't push my speakers very hard, though.

I can recommend them without a moment's hesitation. It's a pity they're not still being made. For me the AE22s are the speaker that the NS10 will be when it grows up.

For whatever reason I also find them ideally balanced with my favourite headphones!
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