You are here

Loudness test

For everything after the recording stage: hardware/software and how you use it.

Loudness test

Postby TNGator » Mon May 06, 2019 7:28 pm

Hey guys. Have you seen this link? It was advertised by Ian Sheppard and is really cool. you drop your mp3 onto the site and it tells you if its too loud or can be increased for the various platforms such as ITunes, Spotify etc. If you want, you can actually download the loudness tester as a plug in.
https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/?fbclid ... us52-PLqJk
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: Loudness test

Postby blinddrew » Mon May 06, 2019 7:30 pm

Yep, very useful tool. Haven't used the plug in but I have used the website a couple of times. :thumbup:
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7864
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Loudness test

Postby TNGator » Mon May 06, 2019 8:01 pm

blinddrew wrote:Yep, very useful tool. Haven't used the plug in but I have used the website a couple of times. :thumbup:

I only used it for the first time the other night. my song can go up by 4db. Is that a lot? Just wondering if a song is 4db "to quiet" means its really low.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: Loudness test

Postby James Perrett » Mon May 06, 2019 8:36 pm

The accepted wisdom used to be that 1dB was the smallest change in level that people could reliably hear and 10dB sounds like a doubling the volume. 4dB will be noticeable but it isn't a massive change.
User avatar
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 8344
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:00 am
Location: The wilds of Hampshire
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration. JRP Music Facebook Page

Re: Loudness test

Postby TNGator » Mon May 06, 2019 8:39 pm

Thanks for that James
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: Loudness test

Postby ConcertinaChap » Tue May 07, 2019 11:30 am

I'd got it in my head that 6 dB was a doubling of volume so, James, your post sent me off googling around chasing the truth, which is 6 dB is a doubling of amplitude and to us non-linear humans that sounds less than a doubling of volume. 10 dB roughly does, though, so thanks from me too, James.

CC
User avatar
ConcertinaChap
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7467
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Bradford on Avon
Making music: Eagle Alley, recording music: Mr Punch's Studio
For more information please re-read.

Re: Loudness test

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue May 07, 2019 11:50 am

ConcertinaChap wrote:I'd got it in my head that 6 dB was a doubling of volume so, James, your post sent me off googling around chasing the truth, which is 6 dB is a doubling of amplitude and to us non-linear humans that sounds less than a doubling of volume. 10 dB roughly does, though, so thanks from me too, James.

CC

Yes it can get confusing.

3dB is a doubling (or halving) of POWER (eg acoustic power from a speaker).
6dB is a doubling (or halving) of AMPLITUDE (eg signal voltage seen on a meter).
10dB is a perceptual doubling (or halving) of perceived VOLUME heard through the ears.

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24298
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Loudness test

Postby TNGator » Tue May 07, 2019 10:37 pm

ok...Im completely lost :headbang:
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: Loudness test

Postby blinddrew » Tue May 07, 2019 11:19 pm

Basically, 4dB could be enough to cause someone to want to reach for the volume control. But this is going to be effected by what's on previously and what's on next. And for artistic reasons you might want the extra 4dB of dynamics on your track anyway.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7864
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Loudness test

Postby TNGator » Wed May 08, 2019 8:20 am

blinddrew wrote:Basically, 4dB could be enough to cause someone to want to reach for the volume control. But this is going to be effected by what's on previously and what's on next. And for artistic reasons you might want the extra 4dB of dynamics on your track anyway.

Hi Drew Yeah Im concerned that my demo is lower than the other artists so the listener has to reach for as you say the volume knob. Which can be annoying for them. Im not trying to get into the volume wars and cause people hearing damage but you do want your track to have plenty of socks like the pro recordings.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: Loudness test

Postby blinddrew » Wed May 08, 2019 9:17 am

Well now you know you need to find an extra 4dB if you're going to get into that space.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7864
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Loudness test

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed May 08, 2019 10:47 am

I think the point is being missed a bit here.

Streaming services -- spotify et al -- use loudness normalisation to achieve a reasonably consistent overall perceived volume of the disparate source tracks being played. The loudness normalisation system processes all uploaded tracks automatically to adjust the replay level to comply with the loudness parameters which that particular streaming service employs.

If your source track's loudness is 4dB lower than Spotify's target loudness, their systems will automatically increase its replay level by 4dB (and limit any transient peaks that get too high as a result) so that it sounds as loud as everything else played from Spotify. (Conversely, if it's 4dB too loud it will get turned down by 4dB.) You don't need to do anything at all... that will just happen.

What Ian's Loudness Penalty measurement system does is nothing more than telling you how your mixed track sits relative to the loudness targets of various streaming services. In your case the mix is a tad quieter than it needs to be, and so it will get turned up when it gets uploaded into the streaming systems.

But -- here's the important bit -- if you like the mix the way it is you don't really have to do anything to it at all. The fact that it gets turned up a bit on replay is neither here nor there -- although if it has loud transients that go above -5dBFS you might want to sort them out first to avoid the streaming system limiting them in, potentially, a cruder and less musical way than you could sort them out yourself.

The real purpose of Ian's plugin is to highlight the problem of hyper-compressed 'peak-normalised' tracks which will get turned down a great deal by the streaming services, and sound rather weak and weedy as a result... But that's apparently not a problem you have.

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24298
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Loudness test

Postby blinddrew » Wed May 08, 2019 1:18 pm

Can i check you on that Hugh? My understanding was that youtube will turn down overloud content but not turn up quiet content. Has that changed?
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7864
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Loudness test

Postby Dave B » Wed May 08, 2019 1:29 pm

That was my experience last year. Youtube stats told me I could add more to the mixes I put up, but they weren't compensated at all. I'd have hoped that that would change.
User avatar
Dave B
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5275
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Maidenhead
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi (I came, I saw, I conkered)

Re: Loudness test

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed May 08, 2019 2:26 pm

blinddrew wrote:Can i check you on that Hugh? My understanding was that youtube will turn down overloud content but not turn up quiet content. Has that changed?

You're quite right -- I was thinking mainly of Spotify (because that's what the OP specifically mentioned) which does turn low-loudness tracks up AFAIK. YouTube and Tidal don't currently turn things up if the track loudness is below the target level, as you say.

In practice, that's rarely a problem because most people are still mastering with peak-normalisation in mind... but for anyone working with wide dynamic-range material, or mixing to the AES recommended -16LUFS loudness normalisation, they will tend to produce quieter tracks that will remain quieter on some platforms.

And that's why Ian's checking tool is so helpful...

But as I say, if the destination is Spotify and the OP is happy with the existing mix, I wouldn't feel an obligation to remix just to raise the track loudness by 4dB... YMMV
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24298
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Loudness test

Postby blinddrew » Wed May 08, 2019 3:15 pm

Thanks Hugh :thumbup:
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7864
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Loudness test

Postby The Bunk » Wed May 08, 2019 6:32 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:3dB is a doubling (or halving) of POWER (eg acoustic power from a speaker).
6dB is a doubling (or halving) of AMPLITUDE (eg signal voltage seen on a meter).
10dB is a perceptual doubling (or halving) of perceived VOLUME heard through the ears.

H

So presumably "going up by 11" gives you that extra push over the cliff?
User avatar
The Bunk
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:00 am
Location: SW London
2 answers; 799 questions and about 58 "Mornington Crescent" posts.

Re: Loudness test

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed May 08, 2019 6:33 pm

:lol: :clap:
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24298
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Loudness test

Postby TNGator » Wed May 08, 2019 8:06 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:I think the point is being missed a bit here.

Streaming services -- spotify et al -- use loudness normalisation to achieve a reasonably consistent overall perceived volume of the disparate source tracks being played. The loudness normalisation system processes all uploaded tracks automatically to adjust the replay level to comply with the loudness parameters which that particular streaming service employs.

If your source track's loudness is 4dB lower than Spotify's target loudness, their systems will automatically increase its replay level by 4dB (and limit any transient peaks that get too high as a result) so that it sounds as loud as everything else played from Spotify. (Conversely, if it's 4dB too loud it will get turned down by 4dB.) You don't need to do anything at all... that will just happen.

What Ian's Loudness Penalty measurement system does is nothing more than telling you how your mixed track sits relative to the loudness targets of various streaming services. In your case the mix is a tad quieter than it needs to be, and so it will get turned up when it gets uploaded into the streaming systems.

But -- here's the important bit -- if you like the mix the way it is you don't really have to do anything to it at all. The fact that it gets turned up a bit on replay is neither here nor there -- although if it has loud transients that go above -5dBFS you might want to sort them out first to avoid the streaming system limiting them in, potentially, a cruder and less musical way than you could sort them out yourself.

The real purpose of Ian's plugin is to highlight the problem of hyper-compressed 'peak-normalised' tracks which will get turned down a great deal by the streaming services, and sound rather weak and weedy as a result... But that's apparently not a problem you have.

H
Thanks Hugh. I should probably just import a pro song into my DAW and compare the volume that way to make sure my demo is not too quiet?
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: Loudness test

Postby Zukan » Thu May 09, 2019 9:23 am

Any of you guys mix to the streaming standards? IE, use something like Mastercheck on the MB and mix to one of the profiles?
User avatar
Zukan
Moderator
Posts: 7929
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:00 am

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ffomezolam