You are here

More money than sense?

For everything after the recording stage: hardware/software and how you use it.

More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:30 pm

Lets face it...we spend money but we dont make any. We love those new plug ins (do we need them?). We buy that course on "better guitar playing". We got that course "how to sing better". Well, we would like to be better musicians and better singers. And we buy those courses on just about everything. But we still havent that number one hit so we havent made a dime. So whats my point. Well this guy did a great little web cast and you should have a look here..

https://events.genndi.com/replay/169105 ... 37679410tW
And yes... he's a well known mixer with books and courses. But his main course i think is nearly $500. Its on sale now for about $300. Thats a lot and the thing is, is it really worth it. Yes I'd like to make better demos but perhaps I can learn as much from SOS as anywhere else. And perhaps for a lot less money. Anyone ever done any of Bobbys courses or are there any "in house" courses run here on SOS? I need to stop running after all of these "buy me" emails that hit my inbox. It's not like I won the euro millions.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby Kwackman » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:36 pm

There are couple of folks on here who will do one to one tuition which IMHO would be better value.

Zukan's site https://www.samplecraze.com has some excellent tutorials too.

And of course SOS magazine has had very useful articles too, dealing with various aspects of mixing/production.
User avatar
Kwackman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Belfast
Cubase, guitars.

Re: More money than sense?

Postby CS70 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:28 pm

TNGator wrote:Thats a lot and the thing is, is it really worth it. Yes I'd like to make better demos but perhaps I can learn as much from SOS as anywhere else.

Dunno. Everybody learns differently. But if you can't learn to make a decent demo (or a commercial hit, makes no difference) with the wealth of knowledge available to you for free or whereabouts, I'm not sure a course will help that much. A course in mixing, that is. You're much better off with a course on how to learn stuff. :-)

Mixing is not exactly rocket science. It does take some time and experience to learn, but what doesn't? Truth be said, it takes far less time and experience than a lot of other stuff in the world - but it's good fun, and a few people can make a living of it, and others have fun and that's great.

And as much as we love the craft, it's a minuscule part of what makes a financial hit (important, but small - say, just like a blade in airplane turbine.. gotta be there alright, but it ain't the plane).

So 500 or 300 dollars for learn to mix? My $.10 is, not worth it. But to have fun? Anytime!
User avatar
CS70
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:00 am
Location: Oslo, Norway
Silver Spoon - Check out our latest video  and the FB page

Re: More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:37 pm

Kwackman wrote:There are couple of folks on here who will do one to one tuition which IMHO would be better value.

Zukan's site https://www.samplecraze.com has some excellent tutorials too.

And of course SOS magazine has had very useful articles too, dealing with various aspects of mixing/production.

For sure...which is the main reason I subscribed to SOS. It's for more than just reading about the mic on the market.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:38 pm

Kwackman wrote:There are couple of folks on here who will do one to one tuition which IMHO would be better value.

Zukan's site https://www.samplecraze.com has some excellent tutorials too.

And of course SOS magazine has had very useful articles too, dealing with various aspects of mixing/production.

Forgot to mention...I came across that Sample web site before. Soem good stuff there for sure. And just saw this book right here on SOS shop https://www.soundonsound.com/shop/books ... ers-manual
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:42 pm

Ah, it's back in stock? Good stuff. :)
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7293
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:50 pm

blinddrew wrote:Ah, it's back in stock? Good stuff. :)

Just put in an order. About 40 euro our money including shipping. I think I just saved $350. Cant complain about that deal. Right..I need to hit the hay. Work tomorrow n all that jazz. Nite all. zzzzzzzzzz
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby James Perrett » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:30 am

CS70 wrote:I'm not sure a course will help that much. A course in mixing, that is. You're much better off with a course on how to learn stuff. :-)

I'd say that learning to listen is the most important lesson - once you understand what different instruments and different effects actually sound like you are well on your way.
User avatar
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 8198
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:00 am
Location: The wilds of Hampshire
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration. JRP Music Facebook Page

Re: More money than sense?

Postby awjoe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:36 am

TNGator wrote: I need to stop running after all of these "buy me" emails that hit my inbox. It's not like I won the euro millions.

I stopped lusting after gear so much after I did an advertising cold turkey. I just stopped reading about gear. That saved some money, too.

And I bought a copy of 'Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio'. It's a Mike Senior book - he's got one on tracking, too. That didn't cost much, either.

Then I got onto useful YT sites with sound info like Graham Cochrane's stuff. It's pitched at my level of (ahem) expertise, plus free is good.

The last thing I did was kinda rad. I limited myself to only a few plugins in the template. I don't need more plugins. I need more skill.

But yeah, I spend money on training. I got up to speed with the Ozone vid on the tutorial page here, and it's stellar. Because I need to understand it right away, cuz I'm using it on this album.
User avatar
awjoe
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 am
Fringe member of the Party Pooper People's Party

Re: More money than sense?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:53 am

I'm sort of in the middle of two or three camps here. On the one hand I am a musician/composer but other than the natural gratification I get from having people enjoy my stuff if it rings their bell (accompanied by a natural desire to promote stuff that I'm pleased with to a wider audience) I really have no ambitions of fame or fortune in anything musical.

Then there is my love of synthesizers in general - and in that regard I'm a collector. Whether or not I use all of them regularly (some get used more than others), the pleasure I get from having the option to at any time is significant and benefits me personally.

I'm developing a taste for modular/Eurorack and (good) softsynths too and though I've got more than enough of the latter I can't see the collection staying static.

I've ebbed and flowed, some years I'm more productive than others. Some of what I would consider my best work was done on limited gear but I think that was more about a point in my life that I could devote more time to it than it was about the gear in some ways. Even in the non-productive years I loved being surrounded by boxes that make interesting noises.

Recently I've been trying hard to improve my ability to make effective use of them and have reached out for input from experts on mixing, mastering and acoustics. All of these latter things are a work in progress but I feel it's the right thing to do and l have a desire to get better at them.

I've got the usual books but I'd rather invest in direct knowledge transfer at this point, and I think it's a natural progression.

I overstretch myself in terms of commitments regularly but ultimately I'm driving hard to justify the collector in me and as long as there is periodic output which I'm happy with (and working on improving) then I have no qualms about the expense, which I keep within my own budgets... mostly.
User avatar
Eddy Deegan
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:00 am
Location: Brighton & Hove, UK
Some of my musical works.
I had a weird time in Surrey once, but that was a drummer's fault.

Re: More money than sense?

Postby awjoe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:53 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
Recently I've been trying hard to improve my ability to make effective use of them and have reached out for input from experts on mixing, mastering and acoustics. All of these latter things are a work in progress but I feel it's the right thing to do and l have a desire to get better at them.

I've got the usual books but I'd rather invest in direct knowledge transfer at this point, and I think it's a natural progression.

For general audio knowledge, or more specific topics?
User avatar
awjoe
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 am
Fringe member of the Party Pooper People's Party

Re: More money than sense?

Postby awjoe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:06 am

James Perrett wrote:
CS70 wrote:I'm not sure a course will help that much. A course in mixing, that is. You're much better off with a course on how to learn stuff. :-)

I'd say that learning to listen is the most important lesson - once you understand what different instruments and different effects actually sound like you are well on your way.

^ Succinct. Will a course help one to listen? Sometimes, I think. Watching people mix in online tutorials, do their A/B comparisons - that's helped me learn to listen.
User avatar
awjoe
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 am
Fringe member of the Party Pooper People's Party

Re: More money than sense?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:34 am

awjoe wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:I've got the usual books but I'd rather invest in direct knowledge transfer at this point, and I think it's a natural progression.

For general audio knowledge, or more specific topics?

A bit of both - I've got specific things I'm trying to achieve with the physical environment and the mixing process and spending a time with people who know what they are talking about is intended to solve, or at least reduce, those problems while at the same time picking up more general knowledge on both subjects.

Mastering, less so mainly due to environmental constraints (Bob Katz's book is amazing, but really indicates to me I'm better off outsourcing that kind of work) but I hope that getting my mixes better will help a little there too.

I think I'm getting better at listening but that's revealed to me a number of things I was oblivious to before which will take some work and practice to learn how to properly handle, if that makes sense.
User avatar
Eddy Deegan
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:00 am
Location: Brighton & Hove, UK
Some of my musical works.
I had a weird time in Surrey once, but that was a drummer's fault.

Re: More money than sense?

Postby blinddrew » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:42 am

Interesting discussion.
My approach has been to get some theory under my belt via books (thank you Mike Senior!), then work on applying it a bunch, then have some coaching once I have a decent idea of how to make the most of that coaching. It's something I'll do again when I think I've hit my next plateau* of competence.
I did an MOOC** on 'how to listen' from Belfast Uni but I'm not sure how much I got from it, it's not really my learning style but sometimes you need to knuckle through the basics.
I also did a two-day mastering course that I found very useful, but I must confess one of the big attractions there was that it was local and very reasonably priced. :)
Picking up on Eddy's last point, there's definitely been a regular cycle of having to unpick previous lessons to move forward. And sometimes you need to go several times through a cycle of simplification and complication, learning and developing a bit each time.


* a plateau doesn't have to be high right? ;)
** Massive Online Open Course.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7293
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 am

CS70 wrote:
TNGator wrote:Thats a lot and the thing is, is it really worth it. Yes I'd like to make better demos but perhaps I can learn as much from SOS as anywhere else.

Dunno. Everybody learns differently. But if you can't learn to make a decent demo (or a commercial hit, makes no difference) with the wealth of knowledge available to you for free or whereabouts, I'm not sure a course will help that much. A course in mixing, that is. You're much better off with a course on how to learn stuff. :-)

Mixing is not exactly rocket science. It does take some time and experience to learn, but what doesn't? Truth be said, it takes far less time and experience than a lot of other stuff in the world - but it's good fun, and a few people can make a living of it, and others have fun and that's great.

And as much as we love the craft, it's a minuscule part of what makes a financial hit (important, but small - say, just like a blade in airplane turbine.. gotta be there alright, but it ain't the plane).

So 500 or 300 dollars for learn to mix? My $.10 is, not worth it. But to have fun? Anytime!

No I'd tend to agree with your 10 cents bro. There are a ton of folks out there who see an opening to make money with all sorts of courses. Dont get me wrong..some are very good. But Im at the stage i think where its just practice now and of course the odd "tip". For example, i only recently learned about the hanging duvet trick for room treatment. I also only learned recently about the benefits of freezing your midi tracks. These kinds of things i would not have figured out by myself.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:14 pm

awjoe wrote:
TNGator wrote: I need to stop running after all of these "buy me" emails that hit my inbox. It's not like I won the euro millions.

I stopped lusting after gear so much after I did an advertising cold turkey. I just stopped reading about gear. That saved some money, too.

And I bought a copy of 'Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio'. It's a Mike Senior book - he's got one on tracking, too. That didn't cost much, either.

Then I got onto useful YT sites with sound info like Graham Cochrane's stuff. It's pitched at my level of (ahem) expertise, plus free is good.

The last thing I did was kinda rad. I limited myself to only a few plugins in the template. I don't need more plugins. I need more skill.


But yeah, I spend money on training. I got up to speed with the Ozone vid on the tutorial page here, and it's stellar. Because I need to understand it right away, cuz I'm using it on this album.

Me too. I've got stuff from Groove3 for things like Cakewalk, Iris2 ( a synth by iZotope) etc. Very useful. I think i need to go cold turkey also to be honest. I've a list of plug ins now that read like a phone book.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby ManFromGlass » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:35 pm

I’m a bit of a plugin junkie on iOS. A long list there that I am slowly working my way through. I’m pretty in control with plugins for the tower as they cost more and I am learning to be cheap! Or trying.
I realized that what I am mostly buying are plugs that I find inspirational rather than practical. Ones that get those creative juices going. And for the most part they do that and I feel I write stuff that I normally would not have thought of.

I don’t know if the above is just a rationalization for my addiction :D but it seems to work right now. And I’m having fun. And I’m writing stuff so I’m also learning more when it comes to mixing etc. so in the end it all seems to boil down to just putting in the hours and doing it and occasionally stepping back and considering how I could have done it better.
User avatar
ManFromGlass
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2070
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:00 am
Location: In the woods in Canada
 

Re: More money than sense?

Postby TNGator » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:42 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:I’m a bit of a plugin junkie on iOS. A long list there that I am slowly working my way through. I’m pretty in control with plugins for the tower as they cost more and I am learning to be cheap! Or trying.
I realized that what I am mostly buying are plugs that I find inspirational rather than practical. Ones that get those creative juices going. And for the most part they do that and I feel I write stuff that I normally would not have thought of.

I don’t know if the above is just a rationalization for my addiction :D but it seems to work right now. And I’m having fun. And I’m writing stuff so I’m also learning more when it comes to mixing etc. so in the end it all seems to boil down to just putting in the hours and doing it and occasionally stepping back and considering how I could have done it better.
Yeah I think we can be junkies with plug ins because most of the time (not always) they can be pretty cheap to affordable. And as you say they can be fun to mess with. I think its those expensive courses are where we need to be carefull. Steve sine is an AMAZING guitar player and has a special July 4th sale on. But do i really really really really need it? As much as Id love to be a better guitarist...I wont die if i dont sign up.
TNGator
Regular
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:55 pm
Southern kin y'all

Re: More money than sense?

Postby awjoe » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:09 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:Mastering, less so mainly due to environmental constraints (Bob Katz's book is amazing, but really indicates to me I'm better off outsourcing that kind of work) but I hope that getting my mixes better will help a little there too.

FWIW: I got three projects mastered by a pro. It was expensive, but worth it because it improved things so much. But by the time I had the most recent project mastered, I'd narrowed the margin of improvement between my mixes and the mastered mixes considerably. So...

Would my stuff be better off being outsourced at the mastering stage? Definitely, yeah.

But equally, would my stuff be better off being mixed by Greg Wells? Certainly.

And while I'm at it, would I get a better sound if I paid to have a recording engineer track my stuff in a real studio? I would say so, yes.

And how about getting somebody other than myself to play and sing the parts? Depending on the talent, I'm pretty sure it would yield a more exciting or engaging or pleasurable recording.

And what about the songwriting? Could someone write my songs better than I can? Hey, hang on a minute! I gotta draw the line somewhere!

But you see my point. It's ALWAYS going to be the case that someone can be paid to do it better than you. But if the whole point is to have fun and learn how to do it better with each project, then the best thing to do is actually do that. So, how important is it to get the project sounding the best YOU can make it, and how important is it to you to simply get the project sounding the best it can be? That last one's simple - it turns on the size of your pockets.

Long story short, that's why I'm paying money for the SOS training video for Ozone - for me, DIY's more fun.
User avatar
awjoe
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 am
Fringe member of the Party Pooper People's Party

Re: More money than sense?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:22 pm

awjoe wrote:And what about the songwriting? Could someone write my songs better than I can? Hey, hang on a minute! I gotta draw the line somewhere!

Well, yes. In my case I'm quite happy to draw the line one step before mastering, which isn't to say I don't want to improve my ability to do better for my own informal purposes or to throw something up on SoundCloud, far from it.

However as it's not something I particularly enjoy, and which if I do it won't get anywhere near as good results as a professional will then I'm going to be outsourcing it for anything more formal (such as stuff I intend to sell on bandcamp for example).
User avatar
Eddy Deegan
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:00 am
Location: Brighton & Hove, UK
Some of my musical works.
I had a weird time in Surrey once, but that was a drummer's fault.

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users