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Re: Really?

Postby Logarhythm » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:11 am

Or, for those of you reading in small room calibrated to 85dB, perhaps:

ConcertinaChap wrote:REALLY?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Really?

Postby CS70 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:46 am

Just to make the discussion a little constructive on the OP subject, I find it very useful to spend most time mixing at low levels - so low that it's perfectly possible to have a conversation while the music is playing. If you manage to make stuff interesting and exciting at that level, when you go "normal" level it gets really great.

Conversely, I always check for short times at a louder than "normal" level - to ensure things don't get grating and the bass sits nicely also when pushing.

"normal" is whatever level I like to listen to my references - a level where I can catch the nuances of the mix but it's still plenty comfortable to listen to.
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Re: Really?

Postby hobbyist » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:29 pm

CS70 wrote:Just to make the discussion a little constructive on the OP subject, I find it very useful to spend most time mixing at low leves - so low that it's perfectly possible to have a conversation while the music is playing. If you manage to make stuff interesting and exciting at that level, when you go "normal" level it gets really great.

Conversely, I always check for short times at a louder than "normal" level - to ensure things don't get grating and the bass sits nicely also when pushing.

"normal" is whatever level I like to listen to my references - a level where I can catch the nuances of the mix but it's still plenty comfortable to listen to.


Well, I dont talk while I mix but I do prefer lower levels.

Agree that normal is where you want to listen and trying to mix to some really loud level because some 'experts' say that is what you have to do is foolish.
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Re: Really?

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:36 pm

hobbyist wrote:
Agree that normal is where you want to listen and trying to mix to some really loud level because some 'experts' say that is what you have to do is foolish.

For (probably) twentieth time, no-one is saying that you HAVE to mix at a certain level.

There is a standard that is the recommended level for mixes that are to be transferred between large commercial studios.

Neither you, I nor anyone else is obliged to mix at that level in our own little worlds - as we have discussed and stated numerous times here.

Why is that so difficult to understand?
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Re: Really?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:50 pm

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Re: Really?

Postby hobbyist » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:37 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Agree that normal is where you want to listen and trying to mix to some really loud level because some 'experts' say that is what you have to do is foolish.

For (probably) twentieth time, no-one is saying that you HAVE to mix at a certain level.

There is a standard that is the recommended level for mixes that are to be transferred between large commercial studios.

Neither you, I nor anyone else is obliged to mix at that level in our own little worlds - as we have discussed and stated numerous times here.

Why is that so difficult to understand?


Sorry you are confused. There *are* a lot of (alleged) experts who say you do have to mix at 85.

The OP said the tape he got on mixing said to do that.
I have seen that claim at many websites that tell you how to mix 'right'.

The standard may say to transfer files at some set level, but too many people do not understand the standard and the standards writers do not really understand FletcherMunson. It was set by groups who like loud sounds thinking louder is better and louder is what audiences in a theatre really want. Maybe at rock concerts but not at the movies.
And never on my TV or stereo.
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Re: Really?

Postby Kwackman » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:45 pm

hobbyist wrote:Sorry you are confused. There *are* a lot of (alleged) experts who say you do have to mix at 85..

I'm with Mike on this.
No one (to my knowledge) on THIS forum says to mix at this level.
This is obviously your hobby horse, so maybe go onto the forums/sites where these "experts" say this and challenge them there?
You're singing to the choir here, and we'd like a new song! ;)
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Re: Really?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:46 pm

hobbyist wrote:There *are* a lot of (alleged) experts who say you do have to mix at 85.

NOT HERE.

I have seen that claim at many websites that tell you how to mix 'right'.

NOT HERE!

... the standards writers do not really understand FletcherMunson. It was set by groups who like loud sounds thinking louder is better and louder is what audiences in a theatre really want.

That's entirely presumptive rather than factual.

H
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Re: Really?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:47 pm

Kwackman wrote:You're singing to the choir here, and we'd like a new song! ;)

:clap: Very good. I like that! :D
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Re: Really?

Postby Mike Stranks » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:37 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Kwackman wrote:You're singing to the choir here, and we'd like a new song! ;)

:clap: Very good. I like that! :D

... and nobody will expect you to sing at 85dB...
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Re: Really?

Postby ConcertinaChap » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:22 am

Sorry, I didn't catch that. Could you turn the volume up a bit?

My coat? Why, thank you.

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Re: Really?

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:41 am

Kwackman wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Sorry you are confused. There *are* a lot of (alleged) experts who say you do have to mix at 85..

I'm with Mike on this.
No one (to my knowledge) on THIS forum says to mix at this level.
This is obviously your hobby horse, so maybe go onto the forums/sites where these "experts" say this and challenge them there?
You're singing to the choir here, and we'd like a new song! ;)

Well in fairness, as I read the OP, hobbyst was not necessarily talking of this site.
But yeah, there's lots of chaff on the internet and oftentimes is exasperating. Good to have SOS as an oasis of rationality at least when it comes to audio. :)
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Re: Really?

Postby hobbyist » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:58 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Kwackman wrote:You're singing to the choir here, and we'd like a new song! ;)

:clap: Very good. I like that! :D

... and nobody will expect you to sing at 85dB...


Thanks.

I cant sing at all. I can barely talk.
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Re: Really?

Postby hobbyist » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:03 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:There *are* a lot of (alleged) experts who say you do have to mix at 85.

NOT HERE.

I have seen that claim at many websites that tell you how to mix 'right'.

NOT HERE!

... the standards writers do not really understand FletcherMunson. It was set by groups who like loud sounds thinking louder is better and louder is what audiences in a theatre really want.

That's entirely presumptive rather than factual.

H

I am aamazed that you all are more sensible than all the other sites I visit.

Ditto.

If it is not factual then why do the standards folks who are considered experts, else why care what their standard says?, insist on using such loud, and dangerous for many people, levels?
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Re: Really?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:24 pm

hobbyist wrote:I am aamazed that you all are more sensible than all the other sites I visit.

Just goes to show, there's something new to learn everyday. There's a reason why Sound On Sound has been going for 35 years and is the single most respected and widely read English-language music technology magazine in the world. You should try it sometime... ;-)

...why do the standards folks who are considered experts ... insist on using such loud, and dangerous for many people, levels?

Because, despite what you think, they really are extremely knowledgeable experts working in collaboration with other qualified experts all around the world, evolving standards over a long time span!

The acoustic reference level they have standardised for professional users working in large rooms with appropriate acoustic treatment -- when used appropriately -- are categorically not dangerous and are entirely appropriate for the intended applications.

That's not to say that the system couldn't be abused and used inappropriately of course -- in which case harmful exposure levels could potentially occur. But we're talking here of trained professionals working in professional environments where Health and Safety legislation applies and is taken very seriously.

When I worked at the BBC, all headphones had protective limiters built-in to prevent accidental (or intentional!) exposure to harmful sound levels, and most control rooms also had LAeq sound exposure metering systems to serve as a guide and reminder to staff to maintain appropriate monitoring levels.

I get the impression you've never worked in a professional sound environment -- where the standard applies -- and your experience of 'unacceptable' levels seems to be only from movie theatres and live sound events -- where it doesn't.

I can't help thinking, therefore, that your angst is being comprehensively misdirected...
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