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PIANO RECORDING

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PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:57 pm

https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/track01

This was originally recorded at 96KHz SR and 24 bit but on Soundcloud it is 320/48KHz

Recorded with -9.6 TP and on a Steinway Model O which was close miked and using DPA 2006C omni mics. I suppose it's a bit on the hot side but had to be to eliminate room sound and standing waves. The piece is by Granados "The Lover and the Nightingale."
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby hobbyist » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:51 pm

Ariosto wrote:https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/track01

This was originally recorded at 96KHz SR and 24 bit but on Soundcloud it is 320/48KHz

Recorded with -9.6 TP and on a Steinway Model O which was close miked and using DPA 2006C omni mics. I suppose it's a bit on the hot side but had to be to eliminate room sound and standing waves. The piece is by Granados "The Lover and the Nightingale."


Learn me please.

How does louder stop standing waves?
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:27 pm

hobbyist wrote:
Ariosto wrote:https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/track01

This was originally recorded at 96KHz SR and 24 bit but on Soundcloud it is 320/48KHz

Recorded with -9.6 TP and on a Steinway Model O which was close miked and using DPA 2006C omni mics. I suppose it's a bit on the hot side but had to be to eliminate room sound and standing waves. The piece is by Granados "The Lover and the Nightingale."


Learn me please.

How does louder stop standing waves?
It doesn't - I did not record it louder, it had a headroom of 9.6dB. The position of the mics (close miked) means the room sound is reduced and therefore any bad standing waves are too.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby hobbyist » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:43 am

Ariosto wrote:
hobbyist wrote:
Ariosto wrote:https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/track01

This was originally recorded at 96KHz SR and 24 bit but on Soundcloud it is 320/48KHz

Recorded with -9.6 TP and on a Steinway Model O which was close miked and using DPA 2006C omni mics. I suppose it's a bit on the hot side but had to be to eliminate room sound and standing waves. The piece is by Granados "The Lover and the Nightingale."


Learn me please.

How does louder stop standing waves?
It doesn't - I did not record it louder, it had a headroom of 9.6dB. The position of the mics (close miked) means the room sound is reduced and therefore any bad standing waves are too.

Thanks. I thought you said it was hot to eliminate standing waves and room sound. Room sound I understand. Now I know what you meant wrt standing waves.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Tim Gillett » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:21 am

Hi Ariosto, nice playing. Is it meant to be in mono?
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:30 am

Tim Gillett wrote:Hi Ariosto, nice playing. Is it meant to be in mono?
Thanks. Yes, she is a good pianist. It's actually stereo but the mics were very close in AB. On the Mixpre-3 I took the split tracks 3 & 4 but maybe I should have used the stereo tracks 1 & 2. I suppose I could widen the tracks also to give it a more stereo effect - but in some ways the piano is like most instruments and pretty much mono on its own. I think I probably go for the sound and I don't bother too much about the stereo effect.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:49 am

Ariosto wrote:
Tim Gillett wrote:Hi Ariosto, nice playing. Is it meant to be in mono?
Thanks. Yes, she is a good pianist. It's actually stereo but the mics were very close in AB.

No, Mr G is right -- it is pure mono on that SoundCloud upload!

My Goniometer shows a thin vertical line throughout, there is nothing at all on the Sides (stereo difference) signal, and the phase meter is hard at the +1 end throughout, too (the only movement of the phase meter back towards zero is in the gaps between notes which is the normal meter decay.

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:02 am

Ariosto wrote:The position of the mics (close miked) means the room sound is reduced and therefore any bad standing waves are too.

This is an interesting point... close-miking will obviously reduce the overall audibility of general room tone. The reflected (reverberant) sound that makes up the room tone is chaotic and weak, so placing the mics closer to the wanted source will dramatically increase the level of the wanted piano sound and minimise the unwanted reflected sound.

However, close-miking is unlikely to reduce any problematical standing wave issues, and I've certainly had situations where simply close-miking a source didn't provide the solution! (Trying to record a double bass in a rehearsal room springs to mind...)

The issue here is the strength within the room of the low frequency reflections that create standing waves. To be aware of standing wave issues, there must be strong LF reflections -- most usually because the walls are brick or otherwise solid enough to reflect a great deal of LF energy.

So if that LF energy is being reflected within the room it will interact with the direct sound and therefore create all those additive peaks and cancelling troughs we call standing waves throughout the room. That being the case, simply close-miking the source won't help.

What will help, though, is physically moving the mics around within the space to find positions away from the deep cancellation nulls or additive peaks.

So mic placement becomes a two-stage process: close enough to the source to minimise unwanted room tone, and then left-right /up-down /fore-aft to find positions that give the most uniform bass response.

Hope that helps.

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:05 am

Oh, that's strange because I uploaded to SC a stereo file.

I do have it on Dropbox but i didn't use that as I think I have problems with the link being compatible, I think I have to change the last digit to a "0" or "1" and I can't remember which.

I will try and upload the Dropbox link.

OK here is the link https://www.dropbox.com/s/pj49ibt5rgmtq ... D.wav?dl=0

I changed the "0" to a "1" - hope it works. It did not work so I changed it back to a "0"
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:20 am

Just a thought...

When you imported your tracks from the Mix-Pre did you then pan them hard-left and right before exporting the resultant mix. If not then that's the answer.

Sorry if that's a 'granny/eggs' response, but after 59 years I am still prone to audio 'Doh!' moments! :lol:
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:23 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Ariosto wrote:The position of the mics (close miked) means the room sound is reduced and therefore any bad standing waves are too.

This is an interesting point... close-miking will obviously reduce the overall audibility of general room tone. The reflected (reverberant) sound that makes up the room tone is chaotic and weak, so placing the mics closer to the wanted source will dramatically increase the level of the wanted piano sound and minimise the unwanted reflected sound.

However, close-miking is unlikely to reduce any problematical standing wave issues, and I've certainly had situations where simply close-miking a source didn't provide the solution! (Trying to record a double bass in a rehearsal room springs to mind...)

The issue here is the strength within the room of the low frequency reflections that create standing waves. To be aware of standing wave issues, there must be strong LF reflections -- most usually because the walls are brick or otherwise solid enough to reflect a great deal of LF energy.

So if that LF energy is being reflected within the room it will interact with the direct sound and therefore create all those additive peaks and cancelling troughs we call standing waves throughout the room. That being the case, simply close-miking the source won't help.

What will help, though, is physically moving the mics around within the space to find positions away from the deep cancellation nulls or additive peaks.

So mic placement becomes a two-stage process: close enough to the source to minimise unwanted room tone, and then left-right /up-down /fore-aft to find positions that give the most uniform bass response.

Hope that helps.

H
Hi Hugh - thanks - that helps a lot.

Do you think then that in the recording you hear a lot of bass response that is not uniform? I actually thought the bass was fairly well handled, although that piece of music has complex harmonies and I've been told it is very hard to memorise.

I am looking (maybe) for somewhere in London that has a really good piano and acoustic as we may be thinking along the lines of some piano solos along with some songs with a tenor voice. But it costs too much in commercial studios and we've been down that road before, once successfully and once when it was a disaster (mainly due to a difficult violinist ...)
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:30 am

Mike Stranks wrote:Just a thought...

When you imported your tracks from the Mix-Pre did you then pan them hard-left and right before exporting the resultant mix. If not then that's the answer.

Sorry if that's a 'granny/eggs' response, but after 59 years I am still prone to audio 'Doh!' moments! :lol:
Actually Mike that's a good point. I did not.

The problem I have in Reaper is that there doesn't seem to be a pan that I would normally see elsewhere. This may be because the two tracks I used are Nos 3 & 4 and are both mono tracks, so maybe I have to convert them to stereo before I get the panning possibilities. (Again maybe I should have used the stereo tracks 1 and 2?) Since getting the NixPre-3 (which is excellent) I have found it difficult to really understand how it works. Maybe I should use basic mode - but I like to use 96KHz sample rate as I've recently been converted to this. In basic mode the MixPre only records in 48KHz SR. I know I could convert this to 96KHz and maybe I should do that.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:34 am

Ariosto wrote:OK here is the link

That's arriving here in mono too, I'm afraid.

Do you have a goniometer plugin on your system? What does that look like when playing your source 'stereo' file?

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:03 am

In Reaper's default GUI the pan control is in both the track section and the mixer section.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:15 am

I think maybe a hands-on session with one of the 'travelling men' who are experts and excellent trainers may not come amiss. Time and money well-spent.

Zukan (High Wycombe) would be the nearest to you... why not drop him a PM to explore options and costs?
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:16 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Ariosto wrote:OK here is the link

That's arriving here in mono too, I'm afraid.

Do you have a goniometer plugin on your system? What does that look like when playing your source 'stereo' file?

H

I think we've now established there isn't one! Parallel mono...
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:18 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Ariosto wrote:OK here is the link

That's arriving here in mono too, I'm afraid.

Do you have a goniometer plugin on your system? What does that look like when playing your source 'stereo' file?

H
I've found it in Reaper and tried it. It is now showing a lot of activity on left and right. That's after I down loaded a ping pong pan plugin and set it at 100%

Both channels are going up and down much more, something I noticed did NOT happen before. So maybe I'm now (after a new render) with a proper stereo file. I will up load to SC and give a link.

Many thanks!
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:31 am

Sam Spoons wrote:In Reaper's default GUI the pan control is in both the track section and the mixer section.
Thanks Sam. I'm not on the default GUI as I changed to one of the other options that I liked. Maybe that's the problem!
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 am

I think this is it!

https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/s ... ter-050819

Hopefully now in stereo ...
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:53 am

Nope. Still mono.

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