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PIANO RECORDING

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:47 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Nope. Still mono.

H
Oh no! I'm completely baffled!

How about this ...
https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/r ... out-050819

I took this from a basic mode recording from the stereo out on the Mix-Pre.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby N i g e l » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:12 pm

Ariosto wrote:I am looking (maybe) for somewhere in London that has a really good piano and acoustic as we may be thinking along the lines of some piano solos along with some songs with a tenor voice. But it costs too much in commercial studios and we've been down that road before, once successfully and once when it was a disaster (mainly due to a difficult violinist ...)

I dont know London at all but I imagine its big enough to have low cost public access pianos (Im thinking of a Library with a large music department rather than painted street pianos ! ).

There must be some lovely grand pianos sat on stages in halls, not being used for most of the time; you only have to ask (and maybe donate to the tuning fund). Granted some of the pianos will be looked after by jobs-worths whilst others will be only to willing to help.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Tim Gillett » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:37 pm

Ariosto wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Nope. Still mono.

H
Oh no! I'm completely baffled!

How about this ...
https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/r ... out-050819

I took this from a basic mode recording from the stereo out on the Mix-Pre.


Still mono.

For comparison here's a stereo recorded performance of the original Granados piece you posted. Press your mono button and hear how the sides collapse into the centre.
https://youtu.be/j-6ZHcJO2zM
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:38 pm


Nope. Still definitely mono. Could it be the SoundCloud coder settings when you upload?

H
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby hobbyist » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:25 pm

Ariosto wrote:
Tim Gillett wrote:Hi Ariosto, nice playing. Is it meant to be in mono?
Thanks. Yes, she is a good pianist. It's actually stereo but the mics were very close in AB. On the Mixpre-3 I took the split tracks 3 & 4 but maybe I should have used the stereo tracks 1 & 2. I suppose I could widen the tracks also to give it a more stereo effect - but in some ways the piano is like most instruments and pretty much mono on its own. I think I probably go for the sound and I don't bother too much about the stereo effect.

It is hard to do a piano in stereo and have it sound natural.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:24 pm

Tim Gillett wrote:

Still mono.

For comparison here's a stereo recorded performance of the original Granados piece you posted. Press your mono button and hear how the sides collapse into the centre.
https://youtu.be/j-6ZHcJO2zM

Thanks. Yes, and it's a lovely performance too.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:04 pm

Sorry to be a pain - but I've now panned each mono channel hard left and hard right and the goniometer is showing an entirely different display (more like clouds) and the rendered file is playing with much more separate movements L and R - so I think this must be OK now.

https://soundcloud.com/user-607637178/t ... anned100lr
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:37 pm

You're not a pain... all part of the learning process.

And... it's.... STEREO! :bouncy:
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:51 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:You're not a pain... all part of the learning process.

And... it's.... STEREO! :bouncy:

That's wonderful news! The problem was that I always assumed the renders were stereo because I rendered the files as stereo from dual mono. Ever since I've had the MixPre-3 I have found it difficult to know which files to use and even the stereo out in the basic mode was to my surprise (and I had read the instructions) not in fact a stereo file, although they said it was.

In my old Tascam days the files came out as stereo (or mono summed) amd there was no problem but these over complicated recorders are a nightmare. What with having to have fingers the size of a gnats to operate the touch screen and having something sharp like a toothpick to switch it on and off, it's not very well designed. Far too small and fiddly - but on the plus side the sound is pretty good. However, i think I would overall have been better off with another Tascam or one of the advanced Zooms. Oh well, I'll just have to live with it.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Tim Gillett » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:27 pm

Yes it's stereo now, but strangely at 2:00 it goes mono, reverting to stereo at 2:13 for (I think) the rest of the piece.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:52 pm

Tim Gillett wrote:Yes it's stereo now, but strangely at 2:00 it goes mono, reverting to stereo at 2:13 for (I think) the rest of the piece.

That's interesting! That exact section is an edit - but the whole file was panned L & R 100% including the edits, and then rendered. Other edits (there were two more) were not affected.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Bob Bickerton » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:12 pm

hobbyist wrote:It is hard to do a piano in stereo and have it sound natural.

That could apply to anything. Most people record piano with a view to it being played back in stereo and there are some very good recordings out there. Stereo recording with mono-compatibility is still the industry standard.

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Bob Bickerton » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:19 pm

Ariosto, do you have the MixPre standard or M?

The standard creates a 'Poly WAV file' which needs to be converted to its individual components for our sort of work. Sounddevices have a free app to do this if your DAW doesn't. I import Poly WAVs straight into Logic which automatically splits them into their component parts. I then discard the stereo (summed) parts and mix the individual components as I would if I had tracked them individually, and yes, that would mean panning tracks as necessary.

The M standard records individual tracks (as well as a stereo summed track if you want it), so not in the Poly WAV format, and so these are a straight import with panning done in the DAW.

Not sure that's very clear, but hope it helps!

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Ariosto » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:53 am

Bob Bickerton wrote:Ariosto, do you have the MixPre standard or M?

The standard creates a 'Poly WAV file' which needs to be converted to its individual components for our sort of work. Sounddevices have a free app to do this if your DAW doesn't. I import Poly WAVs straight into Logic which automatically splits them into their component parts. I then discard the stereo (summed) parts and mix the individual components as I would if I had tracked them individually, and yes, that would mean panning tracks as necessary.

The M standard records individual tracks (as well as a stereo summed track if you want it), so not in the Poly WAV format, and so these are a straight import with panning done in the DAW.

Not sure that's very clear, but hope it helps!

Bob

Thanks Bob. Yes, I have the standard MixPre-3 and I use the Wave Agent from Sound Devices to split the files, discarding the stereo and using the two other tracks. My mistake was in not panning these tracks to 100% Left and 100% right.

I think I have now fixed this as the previous renders were parallel mono but now are coming out as stereo with the panning. I monitor and edit with headphones so I tend to listen for the sound and playing accuracy and not so much the stereo soundstage.

But I'm hoping its fixed and I also know what I'm doing now, after all the help everyone has given me. I'm extremely grateful.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Bob Bickerton » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:34 am

That's great news.

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:47 am

Ariosto wrote:Sorry to be a pain - but I've now panned each mono channel hard left and hard right and the goniometer is showing an entirely different display (more like clouds) and the rendered file is playing with much more separate movements L and R - so I think this must be OK now.

First, you're not a pain -- this is precisely what this forum is about -- helping people to develop their skills and understanding!

The good news: it's definitely no longer mono (apart from the odd mono edit as already noted)....

I'd hesitate to call it true stereo -- as you have observed there is a lot of separation between left and right, so the piano scale and playing across the keyboard is somewhat exaggerated.

This is an inherent problem when close miking because each mics tends to hear only a very local portion of the full sound board, and so there is little coherence between the two channels. This is revealed instantly on the goniometer as 'clouds' and 'rings' which are predominantly horizontal rather than vertical, and the phase meter spends a lot of time at zero or moving towards -1.

Of course, some people like this ultra-wide effect and it can be useful in some applications. But for a classical piano solo like this I'd suggest not panning the mics fully left/right -- it would sound more natural if you narrow the image a little -- pan the two mic channels in from the edges -- and then fill out the outer space with some subtle artificial stereo reverb of a suitable character -- in your case, mostly room reflections rather than a long reverb tail.

But pleased that you've got to grips with the stereo panning in the DAW now, anyway.

Like most recorders of this kind, the MixPre records a stereo mix file, and then individual 'iso' tracks from each separate input. The stereo mix file will comprise whatever panning and level settings you dial into the mixpre as you record/mix, but the iso tracks won't -- so if you are using them as the basis for a mix externally -- in Reaper or whatever -- you'll need to pan and set their levels appropriately in the DAW.

The MixPre is a powerfully versatile unit, so it is inherently complex, but I think it is well organised and you'll find it easier to use with familiarity. I don't have the daintiest of fingers myself but I've had no trouble with the touchscreen -- again, familiarity is your friend here. I didn't have any trouble with the on-off switch either.

The Zoom models are much the same as regards small, fiddly controls, and you'd still find yourself wanting to put your fingers in a pencil-sharpener... ;-) That's why I use a nice, chunky Nagra VI ! :lol:

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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:01 am

Yes, rendering in Reaper can, occasionally, be 'interesting'. When cutting/editing a track to a fixed time for a competition dance for my wife (pupils, that is, she's a dance teacher). I used to move the 'spare' audio around to spare tracks until I discovered that if you have a muted track that is longer than the final edited track the render will include it as silence. Example, I take a 4 min track, cut and paste sections into a new track which is my 2:30 final edit then mute the original before rendering I end up with a 4:00 track with 2:30 of audio and 1:30 of silence at the end. Simple to solve by deleting the original track before rendering but it took me a while to understand.
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Kwackman » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:02 am

Mono or stereo (I listened to the stereo), it's a relaxing listen. :thumbup:
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby blinddrew » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:37 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Simple to solve by deleting the original track before rendering but it took me a while to understand.
Or just render a time selection. :)
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Re: PIANO RECORDING

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:57 pm

Yup, never got that far once I found something that worked. TBF I've never been a 'power user' :smirk:
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