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Orchestral reverb spacing

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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:10 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Moroccomoose wrote:I think my method should work to impart delay on the direct sounds based on their distance from the listener as the rompler will play the instruments with their respective delays. - I thought this would be the significant factor in giving the perception of depth.
I think it's more likely to give the impression of an orchestra that can't play in time! :-)
I thought it, but you said it! :lol:

The idea has some merit in theory, but in practice I do suspect you'll just end up with a wonky orchestra.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:49 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:What you're trying to achieve is a difference between the arrival time of the direct sound, and that of the first reverb reflections since that's what defines how close the source sounds and how far from the walls it seems to be!

So the delay has to be inserted between the sound generation and the reverb processor. If the reverb processor is within an instrument and you can control the pre-delay time with MIDI, then great. But just delaying a MIDI instrument isn't going to do what you need to do!

So far so good, but where does the reverb send level, from the audio, figure in this ?

The depth is being faked by the different delays, say 15, 30, 45, 60 - so do the send levels from each audio source need to vary also ? Or can I just set all the send levels to 0 and adjust the faders of four delay aux buses ?
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:35 pm

I wouldn't be so prescriptive - a bit of creative tweaking and careful listening is all that's really needed.

Lift a reverb and it will make the source seem as if it generating more power to be bouncing from the walls, lower it and it will seem softer and more intimate - but this will work best when other parts, with different levels of send (and EQ) help to create the context.

TBH I didn't realise this was all such a black art! :lol:
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby ManFromGlass » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:31 pm

going deeper into thy blackest art -

How do you make an instrument like the xylophone which has a bright sharp attack, sound like it is at the back of the hall?

Use your longest verb?
Roll off hi frequency information?
Nip a bit of the xylophone note attacks off with a plugin?
Or?
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:36 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:How do you make an instrument like the xylophone which has a bright sharp attack, sound like it is at the back of the hall?
Short pre-delay (if any), roll off the highs. Thassit!

No 'longest reverb', since we're talking about one reverb with multiple feeder delays in these examples.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby ManFromGlass » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:58 pm

D’oh!
Of course. Got it now.
But my stubborn brain is saying in theory that xylophone at the back of the hall is very close to the back wall of the hall so virtually no delay for the reflections but you are talking about the reflections reaching us in the audience. :think:

I need to play with your system a bit as I’ve never successfully figured out how to get bright instruments with sharp attacks sound like real instruments at the back of a real hall.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Wonks » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:21 pm

You could play with this calculator to work out how much to cut with EQ at different frequencies for different distances.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm

I'd decide how far away from the instrument I wanted to be, then I'd plot out a graph for different octaves and then EQ for the relative attenuations at that distance. I'd take the temperature as between 22-23°C and around 55%rH.

Where it becomes more difficult is the attenuation of the reverb frequencies if you are using a single reverb. You could try adding a different EQ into each of the delay paths, but in reality, the reverb sound is taking many paths of many different lengths, so will have a real mix of HF attenuations. Hopefully, a good reverb algorithm should take that into account.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:27 pm

Still a bit of confusion I think...

ManFromGlass wrote:But my stubborn brain is saying in theory that xylophone at the back of the hall is very close to the back wall of the hall so virtually no delay for the reflections
Yes, that's it! So from the audience perspective we will hear the reflections at practically the same time as the source - so a very short (if any) pre-delay will help to create this illusion.

Anything at the front of the orchestra will exhibit a much longer pre-delay, and likely produce a weaker overall reverb (though I often fudge this to generate power and excitement in a mix!) - it will also be brighter and louder.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:46 pm

Alternatively, get a reverb like Altiverb that lets you place the sounds on a stage or in a room exactly where you want them. You can get a similar but a lot less sophisticated effect with non-convolution verbs like Waves Truverb which has a 'distance' parameter and Eventide's SP16 which I just bought which has a similar control. (It's fantastic.)
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 am

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:Alternatively, get a reverb like Altiverb...
But you need a different instance for every placement. I find that the overlaps get phasey and cluttered. I prefer one reverb for a convincing single space.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby ManFromGlass » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:05 am

It gets even more complicated for me. I usually need to bounce out up to 8 stems (in Logic) in one pass. That means a reverb on each stem. In this case potentially 3-4 delays sending to each reverb (and associated stem). Each of the 8 reverbs would be identical.

Doable once I get my head around it. For most music I write I've liked the idea of every thing living in the same "space" if I am going for more organic (as opposed to a fantasy anything goes environment). Thanks for this concept!
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Martin Walker » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:19 pm

The Elf wrote:I typically end up with bigger values than those, but I do it by ear without reading the actual values. The 'front' of my orchestra often ends up in the 80/90ms region.

Ah yes, the impoverished student always listening from the cheap seats right on the back row eh Elf? ;)


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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:04 pm

I have abandoned using the DP in-house delays and instead use 5 instances of 2CAether reverb, which allows separate early and late reflections, ER & LR, with individual delay controls. Thus 1-4 are ER only with delays of 8, 16, 24, and 32, all feeding 5 which is LR with no delay, all instances of N7 Golden Hall, which I think is a Bricasti clone ? Much much better, the L-R positioning of the instruments is clear and the sound is altogether bigger and brighter. Until I start playing with the EQ tomorrow.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:45 pm

I'm not a fan of using multiple reverbs when realism is the aim, but if it works for you, then great! :thumbup:
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Martin Walker » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:12 am

The Elf wrote:I'm not a fan of using multiple reverbs when realism is the aim, but if it works for you, then great! :thumbup:

But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.

To me that would imply a carefully thought out 'single' reverb with more creative opportunities.

I'm going to try this myself too :thumbup:


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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:24 am

Depends what processing is going on it the reverb. I long ago tried this with Altiverb and it phased horribly!
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:59 pm

Martin Walker wrote:But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.

In the 1-4 ER instances I vary the predelay setting, 8,16,24 & 32, and have no predelay in the LR instance.

However there is a minor downside. With just the all-in-one single reverb approach it is very easy in Aether to scoot through all the various pre-sets. So one needs to do that first to pick the best candidate for the multi-approach, so as to avoid having to change settings x 5.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Ah... I see what you're meaning. I'd misunderstood.

Worth a try, I suppose. It offers the potential to change ER patterns, but is that an advantage? Dunno! Worth a try, though.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:47 pm

The Elf wrote:It offers the potential to change ER patterns, but is that an advantage? Dunno! Worth a try, though.

Yes it does, because Aether is so editable, but the only thing I actually vary is the predelay because I am trying to fake different distances in the same space obviously.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:38 am

Gone To Lunch wrote:
Martin Walker wrote:But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.

In the 1-4 ER instances I vary the predelay setting, 8,16,24 & 32, and have no predelay in the LR instance.

The angels, like the devils, are indeed in the details.

Delays of 10,20,30 & 40 sound noticeably 'better' as in cleaner/clearer, brighter.
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