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Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby Jadoube » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:54 pm

KleinAberFein wrote:I was thinking about the ATH-M50XBT because of the many people using the non BT, and they can be found cheap used.
Apparently they don't sound the same but, not too different.
So you prefer the Ora to the ATH?

Yes, the ORA are not cheap. I do prefer them over the ATH-M50x but those are still fantastic headphones. Everyone that has heard the M50x in my circle of musicians really likes them and for the price, they are great. If I had to recommend a headphone to someone they would be my first choice... I did not realize they make a Bluetooth version.

Even the Grado's are an odd choice I must admit. Most musicians don't love them; I like them because they are very open sounding with decent bass and no bad problems but they are open-back headphones. You would never track with them. The M50x are fantastic all around. I find the bass on the round side but certainly usable and the stereo field a little tight compared to the Grado or the ORA and even the AKG 550. But it is still very good. After I used a pair at a studio I immediately bought a set.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby Sam Inglis » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:30 pm

You could try the Audeze Mobius. The head tracking / surround over headphones stuff is actually quite useful when mixing, and I think it can be disabled if you don't need it. And the basic phones are not bad, though obviously not in the same league as the really fancy Audeze models.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby KAF » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:44 pm

They are for gamers.
I would think they must be heavily coloured.
Did you try them? Or do you know anybody who used them for mixing?
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby Sam Inglis » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:50 am

They are marketed at gamers, but they were actually developed at the behest of Universal Studios for film dubbing -- modern movies have to be adapted to so many languages and formats that it's not economic to use a physical studio with a surround speaker setup. They have inbuilt DSP which is designed to flatten the frequency response. I haven't seriously tried mixing on them, but I think they'd be good enough that you could do that.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby resistorman » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:09 pm

A while back you mentioned the ATH 50. I use the wired version for listening and tracking and I like them, but they are a bit uneven for mixing. I don’t think you’d go real far wrong, and you could compensate by referencing mixes you like. But as you evolve in skill, you can add a compensation plugin like Morphit or Sonarworks. Whether or not you choose the ATs, I’d pick one that these plugins have in their database.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby KAF » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:22 pm

I'm comparing the ATH-M50XBT side by side with the ATH-M50X.
The BT are definitely more bassy.
I've put together all possible replacement earpads (brainwavz, geekria, and a few more) to try compensating.
Very very difficult.
The velour completely destroy the sound, absorbing all frequencies.
Similarly the ones with the perforated inner side. Just a bit better the micro-suede.
The PU is also doing strange things, both the flat and the angled.
The best are are sheep skin.
The angled ones give better soundstage and respect the warmth and liveliness of the wired version, but add some boominess.
The flat ones seem to slightly dampen the bass, specially the high-bass, which is what I read that the ATH-M50X have boosted. It doesn't meet my tastes but I guess it's what I need.
Unfortunately they take away some liveliness and warmth.
I'll keep testing, but, difficult...

There is a used Mobius on its way to me, for testing purposes.
I'll let you know what I feel.
I guess that with all the profiles that they have already incorporated into the headphones, there should be no need of motphit & Co.

I've read very good things of the audio-technica DSR9BT. Some say it's better than the Amiron Wireless.
I always loved audio technica...

Which websites do you trust for tests?
I'm on rtings now.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby John Willett » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:57 am

Personally I would only use the earpads that are supplied with the headphones - they will give the best result as they are the ones the designer dis all the testing with.

Any others will colour the sound.

If it's for listening for pleasure, then no problem - but if it's for producing music, you will want the best sound and that only comes with the original pads IMHO. :thumbup:
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby KAF » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:29 pm

I definitely see your point.

And I can confirm that none of the pads which I've tested is free of faults.
But so is also the headphone.
Not neutral.
So, I'm trying to use the faults of these earpads to correct the faults of the headphone.
And my empirical tests make me believe that this is, at least in this case, possible.
It's just not easy to find the right earpads.
They better the sound in something, but add another problem somewhere else.
So, it's a compromise of finding the right balance. A bit like medicine. What's your priority, solving the headache with Paracetamol or not damaging your lever? :)
(Yes, the best would be being healthy: having headphones which are already neutral. But, it's not the case).

My priority is to correct the lack of neutrality, and if this means that I will have a little added veil in the lower mids, it's still better than a transparent but overemphasized upper bass.
After all, the little veil should not affect my mixes, but too much bass would.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a professional!

Anyway I wish you could listen.
I've managed to make the BT ones sound almost exactly as the wired ones.
And somehow better, with more spaciousness.
Just, as said, a little less transparency somewhere.
Actually I've found one earpad which doesn't add almost any veil.
I just am not sure if it's lowering the bass too much.
But this is the topic of the other thread...
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:06 pm

I can't help thinking that you should be going for maximum transparency in the midrange, you can easily correct for the bass emphasis with eq then use reference tracks to re correct the final mix?
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby Jadoube » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:33 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:I can't help thinking that you should be going for maximum transparency in the midrange, you can easily correct for the bass emphasis with eq then use reference tracks to re correct the final mix?

I have to agree. I can't imagine getting the bass "correct" in a set of headphones without the benefit of measuring it against some full-range speakers.
As much as I enjoy using headphones to tweak certain things (certain things mostly in the midrange and stereo field); speakers come first for the mix balances. Until you really understand that bass relationship in your music, you are going to make some mistakes. I would say that's ok. You say you are doing EDM stuff... can I presume the ultimate goal is to get it on a big live PA system? As long as the mix elements' relationships are 'relatively' correct, you can compensate with some EQ. As you gig, you'll learn what works and what doesn't work.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby KAF » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:55 pm

Ok... :lol:

So, I got the Mobius of my friend who gently lets me try them for a while.
They are good, and I've mixed feelings now.

From one side, I like their round sound.
The bass was at first very neutral and still present.
I feel that after installing the new firmware it became more bassy. I checked in the changelog and it says "bass response improved". I wonder, improved for whom? For the gamers who complained it was not enough bassy?
I couldn't see any difference changing through the several EQ modes.

The quality of the sound is different than any other headphone I had, it feels strange somehow, I can't understand if it's a good or a bad thing.
It feels more roomy, but I always have to check if the 3D isn't on, because it feels like the soundstage is not quite natural. It's like an electronic/digital soundstage more than an analog one.
But it might be that I'm not used to planar?
Is this something typical of planar?

And for example in this track:
https://open.spotify.com/track/3RODSrTfDbiamejziqxPkA?si=_Tuyzz4PRYm9FKpQkGA2iQ
at 4:10 you can hear a percussion starting, which seems like one of those bracelets with many little bells or shells.
In the ATH-M50X (and BT) I can hear that very clear.
In the Mobius, that gets a bit lost.
I'm not able to understand if it's because of a better placement of instruments in the soundstage, which makes some of them a bit in the background, or because of the wide dip around the 5Khz which Rtings talks about.

To my ears the ATH-M50XBT with improved earpads sound as neutral as the Mobius but with more detail in the highs. But with less soundstage, despite how the deeper earpads improve it.

I'm not quite able to decide.

I'm tempted to audition the Aventho. Beyerdynamic told me they're supposedly more neutral than the Amiron.
But I'm not sure about producing with on-ear.
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby KAF » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:27 pm

Ok, for the benefit of mankind and the generations to come, here the results of my highly objective and indisputable tests.

Mobius vs ATH-M50XBT (modded with the Brainwavz Angled Sheep's Skin earpads): it was a tough one, I really liked the ATH and I was so proud of my obsessive days of A/B (2 ATH-M50XBT with different earpads, 1 ATH-M50X, 1 Mobius) thanks to which I've found the almost perfect earpads that made them sound, to my imperfect ears, even more neutral than the wired sister.
They are more present than the Mobius in the upper half. Which is good. The Mobius lack there.
Between the dip in my ears, the dip in the Mobius around 5Khz (see review in Rtings), the nature of planars, and the artificial soundstage of the Mobius where some instruments get a bit lost, I felt and feel a lack of vitality there, in general, and specially in the upper half.
The ATH are also lighter and (with the new pads) more comfortable.
But the Mobius had something... A roundness, which makes them more gentle on my ears in the long term. A better albeit artificial soundstage, more separation, more precision in the bass while still being fairly neutral.
And well, can be used with USB, have LDAC (useless for mixing but nice for fun), have this 3D thing, presets...
So. Mobius won.

Mobius vs Aventho Wireless: why Aventho and not Amiron? Ask Beyerdynamics. They told me the Aventho are more neutral and suggested me those over the Amiron for production.
So, I've received, tried, and in 2.2 seconds I knew they had lost. I mean, the Aventho had lost vs Mobius. And Beyerdynamics had lost, their mind.
I don't know nothing about Tesla drivers, but, these headphones need caffeine.
They're not neutral. They're just not alive.
Not even the MIY app, which compensated for the dip on the highs in my ears, could save them.
There is almost zero soundstage. The bass is somehow muddy and pumped.
They sound even darker than the Mobius.
They had also a very noticeable hiss.
And despite being so much lighter, the designer preferred form over function and the junctions of the headband touch the head. Not nice.
Instant return.

Mobius vs Ora Graphene: here I couldn't take advantage of the German Return Right. No Ora here.
I was just about to pull the trigger on an eBay auction for an import from USA.
But I've found a thread on Head-Fi about them, and a few people there had the Mobius too.
So I asked them which one is more neutral.
I was told Mobius.
So, the Ora didn't get a chance.
I stay with the wish to try them.
But Mobius it is.

Mobius vs PXC 550-ii and vs ATH-DSR9BT: I just trusted Rtings and decided not to abuse any further of the Return Right. I've just let go of the obsessive need to compare them too.

Now, I've just ordered the Gel Pads for the Mobius.
I'll come back with my impressions.

I'll also test the AKG K371-BT as soon as they're available. I'm very very very skeptical about the absence of any better codecs than SBC. But, they made them for studio, I must try them.

The Nuraphone remain a curiosity, but I just don't feel that monitoring with something sticking into my ears (besides the reviews about how they make your ears hot) is emotionally convenient.


So.
I think I'll get Morphit, they support Mobius.
And I'll follow the suggestion received in KVR and I'll get a hearing test. Definitive one online, probably also a professional one here locally.
I'll get my EQ Curve, and I'll transpose it in Morphit.
Many people use Morphit with CanOpener, I might try.



That was.
My quest is, at the moment, ended.
And the moment when I understood it was ended, is when I saw the Mobius (I have the copper version) near my Apogee HypeMic.
I think that style is also important.
Colors must fit ;)
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Re: Bluetooth headphones which on cable are good enough for producing?

Postby IAA » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:35 pm

My quest is, at the moment, ended.

I’ve enjoyed following your quest. :clap: You have some dedication. :thumbup:
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