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Preamp into a Preamp

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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:25 pm

lordmike wrote:
Mike Stranks wrote:Given where you are with your mixing, it's probably worth looking at some one-to-one tuition. The Elf and Zukan both offer this (in the UK) at very reasonable rates.

I'm a teacher so I'm always open to learn from other teachers... constantly seeking knowledge is kind of my thing hahaha. Does the 1-to-1 tutoring happen online or does it have to be in person?

If you guys are still game, I could I upload the mix I'm working on here in a week or so when it is finished?


Eh?

What gives? Where was that comment cut from... certainly not this thread.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby blinddrew » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:50 pm

That was me originally. Obviously some fat-fingers going on. ;)
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby zenguitar » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:38 pm

I've gone back and fixed the original quote to show it was blinddrew being quoted and not Mike Stranks. Martin also quoted the same post in his reply so I've also fixed the quoted quote in his post.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby Tomás Mulcahy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:21 pm

James Perrett wrote:I'd say that it is far better to think in a different way.
Just to clarify- that was what Andrew Scheps said. I picture this as how he deals with it when clients are baying for changes and they're against deadlines. Seems to work Ok for him.

The Elf wrote: How far do we take this - have everything running as hot as possible in the box, then habitually drop the master to compensate? It makes no sense to me to do this. You're inflicting the injury, then applying the bandage - better not to injure yourself in the first place!

Hugh Robjohns wrote:But if you're mixing with plugins -- and especially emulation plugins -- your source tracks will all be very hot and way above the nominal operating level for the emulated plugin devices, so although you can avoid output clipping the mix itself will probably already have suffered unintentional damage.
OK, that’s true. So, when you get a rough balance, it might clip… So then I would just do what I said I do in the first place that sparked this discussion off- select all faders and turn them down. Preserves the balance and remove the clipping. Not possible in analogue without running in to SNR issues… which is the point Scheps is making I think.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby The Elf » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:33 pm

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:So, when you get a rough balance, it might clip…
No it won't! Not if you have recorded at sensible levels (-10dBFS or less peak levels) and preserved your peaks through the whole chain.

And James is right - begin to think more about turning things down instead of turning them up.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby Tomás Mulcahy » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:08 pm

The Elf wrote:
Tomás Mulcahy wrote:So, when you get a rough balance, it might clip…
No it won't! Not if you have recorded at sensible levels (-10dBFS or less peak levels) and preserved your peaks through the whole chain.
I'm talking very rough, putting on plugins without worrying about clipping- just getting on with a rough balance. Perhaps you are more controlled about it, I don't know. Personally I like to dive in, kick it around and then critique with the engineer brain later.

The Elf wrote:And James is right - begin to think more about turning things down instead of turning them up.
That's a matter of opinion... and tell Andrew Scheps, not me. Simply turning stuff down won't work if you've a lot of parallel processing, as he does. He gets good mixes, no one can argue with that.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:28 pm

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:I'm talking very rough, putting on plugins without worrying about clipping- just getting on with a rough balance.

The whole point about tracking and mixing with a sensible headroom margin is precisely so that you don't have to worry about clipping...
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby MOF » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:36 pm

Try re doing some old projects (assuming you didn’t go into digital clipping) and put an attenuator plugin on each track so that they peak at the previously suggested levels.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby The Elf » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:14 am

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:I'm talking very rough, putting on plugins without worrying about clipping- just getting on with a rough balance.
But with appropriate headroom you *shouldn't* be clipping - or even need to consider the possibility! None of my 'rough' mixes would clip - not one!

Simply turning stuff down won't work if you've a lot of parallel processing, as he does.
Parallel processing doesn't make *any* difference at all - preserve your peaks and you will not have to touch that master. I often use loads of parallel processing too - never have to touch that master.

All I'm saying is that you could make life easier for yourself - if you can't see that it's fine. As long as you get the mixes you want then it's all good.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby The Elf » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:16 am

MOF wrote:Try re doing some old projects (assuming you didn’t go into digital clipping) and put an attenuator plugin on each track so that they peak at the previously suggested levels.
:clap: :thumbup: :thumbup:

First job I do when I receive a mix to undertake...
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby Tomás Mulcahy » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:08 pm

As you say, it's not technically wrong. It's a preference. Watched some more of Andrew Scheps on Mixing With the Masters. He does exactly what I do, even has a limiter permanently on, and sends 32 bit fp to mastering so they can turn it down. He would not go down well around here LOL. He even spoke about deliberately exploiting clipping in the old fixed point mixer in Pro Tools, and how he sometimes uses a plugin to get the same effect in the floating point mixer. He is known for "loud". I tend towards loud too, it's apparent when I check the LUFS towards the end of the process. At that stage, I just turn it down which retains the balance and dynamics I prefer.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby lordmike » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:34 pm

Guys, I love how my original question has taken on a mind of its own! Keep going, I'm learning a lot from this conversation! I've already implemented some of the suggestions I've heard and man, my mix does sound better. My new 8i6 is here and I'll get it up as sends/returns here early next week. I also found a really cool trick to make my guitars sound pretty great... Are there any Reason users here? I'd be happy to share.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby The Elf » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:21 pm

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:As you say, it's not technically wrong. It's a preference. Watched some more of Andrew Scheps on Mixing With the Masters. He does exactly what I do, even has a limiter permanently on, and sends 32 bit fp to mastering so they can turn it down. He would not go down well around here LOL.
Just cos you're a 'name' doesn't mean you know everything! If you saw some of the things I've witnessed... :headbang:
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby James Perrett » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:33 pm

The Elf wrote:Just cos you're a 'name' doesn't mean you know everything! If you saw some of the things I've witnessed... :headbang:

I've also heard some pretty horrifying stories about certain well known producers in the 80's from someone I know who was an engineer at the time. Sometimes the results are more down to luck (or support from others) than technical skill.
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Re: Preamp into a Preamp

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:56 pm

The Elf wrote:Just cos you're a 'name' doesn't mean you know everything! If you saw some of the things I've witnessed... :headbang:

You and me both. :silent: :shocked:

Commercial success is no guarantee of accurate knowledge or good understanding...
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