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Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:06 pm

blinddrew wrote:Not going to disagree, but I will lob in a couple more thoughts.
Firstly, I wouldn't compromise the mic for the sake of the AI.
But secondly, I wouldn't compromise the AI for the sake of the control surface! :)
The control surface can always be added later without any detriment to the sound in the meantime.
Consider also that your control surface is not going to give you that EQ-knobs-wiggling effect of a hands-on mixer. Unless you get hold of something like a BCR2000 and configure it to do that job. (Funnily enough, that's what I did. :) )

P.S. I'm not for a moment suggesting that you don't prefer the sound of your tube gear, just that it's not something magical that only exists in the analogue domain.

Yes, good points. I just really hate using daws with a trackpad (although that said I've never used on with a control surface apart from a quick play with the avid app on a tablet). Probably better to say that when I've previously had a mixer - even like the tascam portastudio - there's just something more organic about faders and knobs.

I've watched some videos on the x-touch and yes, while it's not quite the same as a per-channel eq section, it does allow you to fairly easily adjust the eq using the knobs. Probably take a bit of getting used to, but the more I can take my hands away from a keyboard and trackpad, the more they can be on a keyboard or guitar ;)

If I got the Scarlett at 433 euro, the SMB7 at 398, and if I can get the second hand X-touch and extender done to 550, that would be 281 over my budget. Do-able but...

But if I did the same with a brand new X-touch without extender, it would come down to 1230, only 130 over my budget.

I'll have a think (and see if the x-touch guy gets back in touch - no pun intended).

Thanks for the input (again...)
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby The Elf » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:00 pm

The X-Touch is a great piece of kit, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will spend 80% of its life gathering dust - but you will only believe this when you've tried it for yourself.
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:58 pm

The Elf wrote:The X-Touch is a great piece of kit, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will spend 80% of its life gathering dust - but you will only believe this when you've tried it for yourself.

I can believe it... If i got the Tascam Model 12 at 599, that gives me a mixer, ai, and basic daw control...

One concern about the daw control is the faders. If i set logic tracks 1 to 8 as individual outs to the faders to control the volume and set it in logic using the faders, what happens it I then change one or more tracks to go to a channel on the mixer. The fader will be set for the previous track. If i just wanted to fine tune thia new track, am i out of luck and have to start from the previoua fader position?

Yes, I'm back to considering the Tascam...
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby resistorman » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:56 pm

The Elf wrote:The X-Touch is a great piece of kit, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will spend 80% of its life gathering dust - but you will only believe this when you've tried it for yourself.

Agreed. I tried hard to love mine, and it actually worked really well with the simplified layout of Harrison Mixbus. But ultimately it was much easier and faster to work in the box and I sold it.

On a side note, the Model 12 saved my bacon today. I was fiddling around with my Eurorack and accidentally came up with a great drone sound for a Taxi listing I'm looking at. All I had to do was reach over and hit record (the master out is always armed so I didn't have to worry about arming tracks and levels) and captured some good stuff. My experience is that if you break your concentration for more than a second or two this sort of thing gets lost forever.
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:05 pm

Another desk that interests me is the Soundcraft MTK12 (or even the MTK16 or MTK22 if I pushed things). Built in audio interface, analogue desk.

It also has a feature that I don't think the Tascam 12 has?

Every analogue signal going in to a channel is sent to the daw via usb and (optionally) returned again. Basically, it's an insert. So, if you want, you can turn the return off and the signal goes from the analogue input, through the analogue eq etc (as well as going to the daw), or you can turn on the return and the analogue input goes to the daw, and returns into the signal path with whatever processing you've added.

The MTK22 has 24 usb in channels and 22 out. I can get it for 777 euros.

So that would remove the need for an AI (433 for the scarlet). Ok, I'd lose midi, but I already have ways to get midi in (Rubix 24, midi to usb cable) - plus my keyboard has usb too although it is old (it's a CME UF7) so not sure if it is supported on Catalina.

Main downside is I lose daw control completely, plus motorised faders for recall (obviously).
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:05 am

Just had a realisation... (and you have to bear in mind I'm not had a chance to use the keyboard for years and my audio work has been limited to mixing voice, stock music and foley for videos for a long time - and I've not even had the keyboard controller set up for years...).

The CME UF7 comes with 9 faders, 9 knobs, transport controls etc... i can assign them to logic and that will give me the basic control I'd get with a simple mixer/control surface. Sure, not the same as a motorised control like the x-touch, and not a mixing desk, but should do what I *need* vs *want*.

Also, I asked a question about using the faders to control logic and would it totally override settings if I moved to a new track, but I've just watched a video on this and see that it doesn't take control of the value (say volume of the track if a fader), until the fader hits the current level. That solves that problem.

So... at least for now I don't need a mixing desk or control surface. I just need a better AI with multiple channels and clean high gain inputs, and a new mic.

Am I on the right track?
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:44 am

A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future. :thumbup:
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:25 am

blinddrew wrote:A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future. :thumbup:

Someone shoot me please!

These pros and cons are mainly only those that matter to me.

Mtk12/16/22 - pros: analogue mixer, built-in ai, usb return (ie using the daw as an insert), better routing options. Cons: no daw control so mixer faders etc are detached from logic.

Tascam - pros: could get it today ;), built-in ai, daw control, midi (so could sell my Rubix24) Cons: no usb return insert feature, only 10 out, digital mixer, features I don't need (like recording - would use it but only for backup audio recording of live interviews i would imagine and my 70d would do that)

AI and my existing midi keyboard as daw controller. Pros : better quality AI (at least higher sample rate) than either desk but I don't neer that. Cheaper, but for less features. Cons: using keyboard for daw control not ideal, having to lean over keys during an interview (which is video too) to adjust gain with faders etc

Writing that makes me think the only thing really putting me off the Tascam is the lack of per channel usb return.. But i wonder how much i need that. Any workaround?

Thanks
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:57 am

Why would you need to adjust gains during an interview? If you are the interviewer you need to concentrate on the job in hand so set the gains beforehand and do just the one job. You can easily sort the balance out in post if you record at 24/48 as you'll have far more headroom than you need.
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:00 am

Sam Spoons wrote:Why would you need to adjust gains during an interview? If you are the interviewer you need to concentrate on the job in hand so set the gains beforehand and do just the one job. You can easily sort the balance out in post if you record at 24/48 as you'll have far more headroom than you need.

Well if i was doing something live and had multiple guests for instance. Doing the one job is great if you have staff but...
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:30 am

blinddrew wrote:A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future. :thumbup:

Forgive me, i meant to say thank you! I'm waiting for my daughter to come out of minor surgery and killing/using time but not thinking straight. Didn't mean to be rude in my reply. All gone fine btw, in recovery now.
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:43 pm

Good to hear everything has gone well, and no worries, all taken with positive intent. :thumbup:
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:07 pm

johnr10 wrote:
blinddrew wrote:A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future. :thumbup:

Forgive me, i meant to say thank you! I'm waiting for my daughter to come out of minor surgery and killing/using time but not thinking straight. Didn't mean to be rude in my reply. All gone fine btw, in recovery now.

No problem, hadn't crossed my mind. Glad she's on the mend.

johnr10 wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:Why would you need to adjust gains during an interview? If you are the interviewer you need to concentrate on the job in hand so set the gains beforehand and do just the one job. You can easily sort the balance out in post if you record at 24/48 as you'll have far more headroom than you need.

Well if i was doing something live and had multiple guests for instance. Doing the one job is great if you have staff but...

Understood if it's live :thumbup: . For recorded though material the dynamic range of 24 bit recording is such that you probably don't need to worry about levels while recording as you can fix them in post.
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby johnr10 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:21 pm

Yes, I just set up the faders on the keyboard to control master and channels 1 to 8, but what I feared is right. It's very hard (at least, the way I have it positioned with the keyboard to the right of where I'll be looking to interview people) to change the faders without hitting some of the keys. Even with no channels for the midi active, the keys themselves made quite a load bouncy sound that would be picked up - at least with my current mic, perhaps less so with a dynamic mic like the sm7b. A small mixer is going to be more manageable in front of me than a 76 key keyboard ;)

Still, I've gone another day without rushing somewhere to buy something or ordering anything online - although I sure need to make a move soon.

In other news, I turned off the overclocking on my mac (it's a hackintosh), and the background noise is now much better now the fans are not working as hard. Still not 'perfect' of course, and won't be, but better.
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Re: Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

Postby nathanscribe » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:11 am

johnr10 wrote:
resistorman wrote:Johnr10, the Model 12 is an analog mixer with some digital features like USB and effects. The signal path is analog.

[Ah, you edited your reply between me writing this. You said it was NOT digital. So my reply to that was...]

Sorry, but it is.

From the intro in the manual itself '10 input digital mixer with 10 line and 8 mic inputs ' (second feature on the Introduction page).

https://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/Model12_Manual.pdf

One the sound comes in, it goes through an ADC and after that, all eq and effects etc are purely digital.

This is interesting.

The manual for the 12 says clearly "digital mixer", whereas for the 16 and 24 they're "analogue mixers" with digital recorders.

A quick look at the block diagram for the 16 shows it to be an analogue mixer, with analogue comp and EQ, with sends to the digital recorder seemingly taken from before those.
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