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Adding noise.

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Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:22 pm
by Arpangel
Sam Spoons wrote:Given that 25% of the screen time is adverts (less for the BBC TBF but far from zero) and the ridiculous amount of repetition in many shows (implying that the average viewer can't remember what happened before the 3 minute ad break) most 30 min TV programs have about 12 mins of actual content.....

That’s why we never watch TV.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:42 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
Sadly true...

There is also a trend these days with many service reality shows like A&E24/7 or whatever, that the first 60, 90 or even 120 seconds before the actual title screen and the start of the actual episode is made up of clips from other shows purely to set the scene and engage the viewer.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:47 pm
by Tim Gillett
Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Tim Gillett wrote:I dont think most people do like film grain per se. These days some people so used to modern HD video complain when older films are presented with the film grain intact.

Perhaps it's different for people hanging on to the other side of the planet... :D But we'll have to agree to differ... Over the years I've been involved in many pro and public comparison sessions on all manner of programming aspects, and as I said, they demonstrated a clear preference for grain (or a Gaussian noise 'equivalent'). Obviously, it needs to be subtle and not overwhelming...

These people must then have an expectation that in this respect the cinema experience is not meant to reflect how we see the world with our eyes. For the last time I checked, most humans I'm aware of see the world in HD colour but without film grain.
I've never read of, let alone met anyone who expressed a desire to see the world in their daily life with film grain permanently added. Perhaps I dont move in the right circles. ;)

There is a film gamma curve which videographers long wished they could emulate but their cameras were much poorer performing than today in terms of dynamic range. AFAIK, the dynamic range of today's pro cameras is pretty much up there with photochemical if not better and certain gamma curves can be programmed in, analogous to how in audio today we can capture without compression and then take the time to get the compression right in post.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:50 pm
by CS70
Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Tim Gillett wrote:I dont think most people do like film grain per se. These days some people so used to modern HD video complain when older films are presented with the film grain intact.

Perhaps it's different for people hanging on to the other side of the planet... :D But we'll have to agree to differ... Over the years I've been involved in many pro and public comparison sessions on all manner of programming aspects, and as I said, they demonstrated a clear preference for grain (or a Gaussian noise 'equivalent'). Obviously, it needs to be subtle and not overwhelming...

Yeah, I do remember seeing "the hobbit" and the cinema and really being put off by the tv-like images. So much that I have not so much recollection of the film itself (I know the novel very well of course). It kinda got in the way.

It's probably habit as much as anything, but subtle grain seem to confer a cinematic feeling to even the most mundane scenes.

Paired with the right music, gotta say. It's fun to try to look at some hyper-cinematic scenes muting the audio..

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:07 pm
by Kwackman
Tim Gillett wrote: For the last time I checked, most humans I'm aware of see the world in HD colour but without film grain.

Last time I checked, I was certified as human (borderline maybe) and therefore hear the real world in surround sound.
But, for music, (and films) I much prefer stereo, inferior though it may be!

Tim Gillett wrote: I've never read of, let alone met anyone who expressed a desire to see the world in their daily life with film grain permanently added. Perhaps I dont move in the right circles. ;)
When I worked in local TV post production, the picture editors were frequently asked for this effect, especially in any "arty" program.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:14 pm
by N i g e l
Ive been dithering in photoshop...

[1] original text, intensity of black decreases L to R through shades of grey ( :roll: )
[2]original digitised to 1 bit @ 50 % threshold [black or white]
[3]Original with film grain added
[4]Original with film grain added & digitised to 1 bit
[5]Original with halftone pattern (old newspapers used this for reproducing photos)
[6] as 5 but digitised to 1 bit

Image

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:51 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
Nice visual demo of the benefits of dithering, in all its forms...

Not quite the real point I was making, but interesting nonetheless.

I'm aware that virtually noise-less, squeaky clean images have their place...

...as do images with enormous depths of field, and high saturations, for that matter (another common video characteristic until recently)...

...and especially so when the goal is a more scientific or archival capture of a scene.

However, when it comes to what might be intended as art and to stir emotions, something a little less stark and precise does seem to be favoured by a sizeable body of the audience in my (casual) research and experience.

I'm not a fan of the (usually stupidly) over-the-top fake film damage added to some video material, or of the large and heavy grain effects I've seen once or twice. But subtle grain effects -- whether real or electronic -- can definitely add mood for some material, in my humble opinion. Happy to accept that others may have differing views.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:10 pm
by Sam Spoons
The clarity and sharpness of some of those old technicolour and B&W films is astonishing, despite the grain they are really crisp and vibrant. I love monochrome still images and a little graininess can add to the vibe.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:47 pm
by blinddrew
I would suggest that people watch documentaries for realism and films to get away from that reality. Increased saturation, a bit of film grain, and a range of other techniques all help to create that illusion.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:02 pm
by ef37a
blinddrew wrote:I would suggest that people watch documentaries for realism and films to get away from that reality. Increased saturation, a bit of film grain, and a range of other techniques all help to create that illusion.

Agreed but, but when Arty-fartyness means we cannot see or hear WTF is going on it fails.

Is there a stage direction in any of the Bard's plays that says the performance should take place behind oiled muslin lit by three candles and the actors should all keep a couple of marbles in their gobs?

"Art for art sake. UNDERSTANDING FFS!

Dave.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:32 pm
by CS70
N i g e l wrote:Ive been dithering in photoshop...

Interesting.. a trick I found, to a similar effect, is to use a smudge of Gaussian blur on titling. It gives that kind of "produced", larger than life effect that grain seems to have for video.. it makes it cinematic.

Take my band's logo - here's the base building block - which looks exactly like, well, an image with a True Type font writing over it, powerpoint-like (ok, but not particularly cool)

Image

and here's the same image with a small amount of blur on the logo itself. It kinda fattens it up and makes it pop in a different way, the blurring suggesting an analogue, imperfect process to capture the image, which gives it a more "realistic" feel - for want of another word (which is in line with the band ethos of doing analogue recordings of stuff as opposite to use synths etc).

Image

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:11 pm
by ef37a
Just makes me slightly Uncle Dick C!

Dave.

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:33 pm
by Martin Walker
That's a very 'analogue' looking logo tweak CS70 - I like it!


Martin

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
by CS70
ef37a wrote:Just makes me slightly Uncle Dick C!

Dave.

:bouncy: :thumbup:

Re: Adding noise.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:12 am
by CS70
Martin Walker wrote:That's a very 'analogue' looking logo tweak CS70 - I like it!


Martin

Yeah isn't it? I dont remember, but I think I lifted the idea observing video games images, the games which want to feel realistic always add a little bit of blur to avoid the cartoonish look, which is perfectly defined.