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Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

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Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby gongli » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:59 pm

Should I pan the piano to one side about 30 degrees to one side to get it out of the way for the cello to shine, on cello and piano recording?

I did that here with 9 CCM hymns here : how do they sound?

https://soundcloud.com/joong-rhee
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:04 pm

There are no rules... you need to create a stereo image that satisfies your clients and customers.

In a live public performance, the piano would typically be slightly off centre with the player to the left, and the cellist usually in front and slightly right.

From the audience perspective, the cello will have a pretty narrow, almost pin-point sound image, while the piano will be rather wider, but still nowhere near as wide as the complete sound stage!
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby gongli » Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:01 pm

Thanks for that quick answer Hugh!

If you don't mind, could you have a listen at the CCM hymns and give me a feedback on how they sound - especially how it relates to the pan issue, and any other mixing issues...

Stay safe now with goggles to protect your eyes as well from covit.

https://soundcloud.com/joong-rhee
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby John Willett » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:31 pm

gongli wrote:Should I pan the piano to one side about 30 degrees to one side to get it out of the way for the cello to shine, on cello and piano recording?

I did that here with 9 CCM hymns here : how do they sound?

https://soundcloud.com/joong-rhee

The last time I did a cello & piano recording I used a phased array (ORTF cardioids + spaced omnis) and recorded them together.

The cellist was in front of the piano.

This was a live performance and was how the audience heard it.

The omnis were for the bottom end of the piano and ambience - the ORTF pair were for the image.

Omnis on their own (which I use foir solo piano) did not work so well with the cello there. I experimented with omni level an, in this instance, decided that -12dB for the omnis sounded best.
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby forumuser840717 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:29 pm

John Willett wrote:The last time I did a cello & piano recording I used a phased array (ORTF cardioids + spaced omnis) and recorded them together.

Splitting hairs maybe but that's just four mics / two pairs / omni pair and ORTF (or other near-coincident) pair on a bar. Fine as it goes and often useful but not a 'phased array'. That refers to something specific and has nothing to do with mics.
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby Mike Stranks » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:38 pm

The four-mic set-up as described by JW is what I'd call a 'Faulkner 2' array. ('Faulkner 1' is the two 'parallel' spaced fig-8s.)

JW has described this (F2) as a 'phased array' in the other place and explains that he'd been chatting to TF about it. I'd be interested to know if TF describes F2 as a 'phased array' or gives it some other description.
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:36 pm

Tony has definitely made references to the idea of a 'phased array' when describing this combination mic technique.... But like '717 I'm not convinced with the analogy. Phased arrays have very specific properties and I'm not convinced this omni/cardioid array really fits the bill.

That's not to say that the combination can't be useful and work well in the right situations.
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby Trevor Johnson » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:18 pm

My experience as a performer, when recorded, is a whole lot of DPAs for the piano plus one, or two DPAs, for the soloist. All close in.
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby Tim Gillett » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:16 am

gongli wrote:Should I pan the piano to one side about 30 degrees to one side to get it out of the way for the cello to shine, on cello and piano recording?

I did that here with 9 CCM hymns here : how do they sound?

https://soundcloud.com/joong-rhee

I listened to your track plus a couple of others. Did you use one mic to record both? If so, you probably now have very little option for panning each instrument.

If it was possible I would have recorded each instrument with its own mic moderately close to the respective instrument. That would make panning possible.
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Re: Should I pan the piano to one side on cello and piano recording?

Postby Arpangel » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:36 am

The piano and cello have to sound "integrated" if you start panning things around it looses coherence, they have to sound like they’re in the same space.
This is where an MS pair comes in handy, if you’re after a natural, audience perspective, you can fiddle with the stereo width afterwards to get it right.
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