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Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby The Elf » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:50 am

Nowt wrong wi' that, mate! :clap:
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:46 pm

The stop works for me, the first verse is (deliberately I guess) disconcerting and puts the listener off balance but then everything seems to lock in to it's slightly off kilter groove. Good tune :thumbup:
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby ManFromGlass » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:21 pm

So were agreed then? This is no longer Drew’s track - let’s all get it finished, people! Some good suggestions here.
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby blinddrew » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:52 pm

Ok, so either you're all wrong* or there's something other than the stop timing that is throwing me. So it's either the lead up to the stop, the re-entry from the stop, or possibly the sound of the stop.
At least I have a logical list to work through.



* Something I am not completely ruling out. ;)
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby RichardT » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:36 pm

I don’t have any problem with the stop either! It’s 4 beats + 2 beats drum fill isn’t it? Sounds fine to me. I think it works very well.
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby ken long » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:11 am

This post title gave no hint to what the issue or content was. Might be more helpful to put that in the title. Just sayin...
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby blinddrew » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:33 am

This is true.

And just to be clear, because I fear I may not have been completely so the first time, it's not the length of the stop that's bothering me, it's the precise timing of the beat that goes into the stop.
If that's what you've already commented on, then thank you. :)
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby CS70 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:07 pm

blinddrew wrote:This is true.

And just to be clear, because I fear I may not have been completely so the first time, it's not the length of the stop that's bothering me, it's the precise timing of the beat that goes into the stop.
If that's what you've already commented on, then thank you. :)

Finally managed to have a listen :)

I kinda get what you mean - though is not really that annoying, and I suspect it's more about the difference of the feel you want in your head vs. what it is rather than some absolute metronomic issues.

Anyways, two cents: it may have nothing to do with the timing of the beat, but rather with the vocal delivery and the arrangement.

If you listen to the drum line without vocals trying to ignore the vocals, the timing is solid and the beat has a proper sense of "closure" - a good place for a stop..

Unfortunately I totally lack the language to express rhythmical concepts properly... it'd be much easier to pick up a guitar and show it by playing... but I try :-). The core of that "galloping" rhythm you're using is that the final beats of the measure are "fast", that quick "ta-tan" continuously propels the music into the next bar and gives a lot of energy. It's a kinda classic pop device because it makes you stand up and move, it's funky. But it also sort of calls for a tight vocal delivery, where you can can "move around" a little in the measure in terms of timing but you come back spot on at the end of each one. or at least of each musical "sentence".. (an example is one of the first songs I ever heard, a very old Italian hit song.. the author became "big" with that song but hated it for the next 30 years since it was "too pop" :-D ).

In your track, your vocal delivery has a much looser relationship with the rhythm, and often your vocal accents (the two main ones you give) end after the beat, which is perhaps the opposite of what the rhythm naturally suggests. This makes the singing (and the song) original and nice (and absolutely not "too pop") but it leaves you in a bit of a dilemma when you want to stop... because if you choose to stop when the vocal accents suggest, the drum stop will feel too early, and if you choose to stop with the drums, you have to suddenly change the timing of the vocals, which would feel even stranger.

The progression also does not help - you kind stop on a chord and a note that's "going up" (again, no idea of the proper musical terminology!) which further leaves things a bit hanging and the mind a little frustrated.

The same thing that makes the song original kinda trips you a bit in the point!

I wouldn't worry too much, but if you're really irritated, something's gotta give: either you ditch the stop, or you find a way to shift the vocal accents before it to get tighter with the drums, or change the melody to offer more closure at that point (hoping it counterbalances the rest)... simple word changes could also help, you could try the classic exercise of finding sounds that work differently in your mouth and then see if yo can make up words and lyric with them. Or of course, change the drum pattern.

Though stuff! :D
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:04 pm

I think it's absolutely fine too. My ultra-scientific test is to bob your head along with it. If the reentry feels like it comes in on the correct bob, it's working. I will be writing a PhD paper on this technique in due course.
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby Kwackman » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:38 pm

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:My ultra-scientific test is to bob your head along with it. If the reentry feels like it comes in on the correct bob, it's working.

Genius! :thumbup: Headbangers were right all along! :mrgreen:
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby Sam Spoons » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:39 pm

Is that 'the nod' that Zukan refers to?
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby blinddrew » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:28 pm

I'm happy with the re-entry, it's the exit that's bugging me. :)
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Re: Quick request for help - driving me nuts!

Postby blinddrew » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:05 pm

For anyone interested, I ended up delaying the drum and guitar stop notes by 5 ms and actually bringing forward the bass note by a similar amount to align the hits better.
I now simultaneously believe that this both sounds better and that my ears could not feasibly detect such a minor difference. :) :headbang:
I'm also having a think about some of the other suggestions but I'm broadly comfortable with where I got to aside from that stop point.
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