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How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

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How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:40 pm
by armans
I am opening up a lot of my favourite music and trying to learn from the mix. I especially like to take sparse parts of the song as I feel they are more exposed and I can learn more about what was done to the individual elements to get them to sound so good together.

I seem to get stuck when listening to the side channels most as I can hear things but I am not sure I understand what they mean. Here is a link to two short clips. One is the full mix and the other is just the downmix of the side channel.

https://gofile.io/d/ekIbug

There is a guitar, a a vocal and some rides in the background in the side channel which obviously means that this is the difference between the two channels, or what is not panned in the centre. Most the width seems to be coming from the guitar but I also here the vocal in the sides. Does that mean that the vocal is panned? Or does it mean that the reverb is in stereo and that is what you hear in the side channel?
Also, is there anyway to make out how the guitar was recorded or how it was treated to get that stereo effect?

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:54 pm
by CS70
If the vocals where panned, you would hear it clearly in the full mix. But they are firmly central in the second snippet.

So yeah probably the vocals are "stereo-ized" by something which creates a difference between the L and R channels - in that specific case maybe a combo of a doubling effect and stereo reverb (there's a kinda warbly/flangy sound in the Side channel), but there's gazillions of effects which may end up producing that effect, so hard to say.

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:40 pm
by armans
CS70 wrote:
So yeah probably the vocals are "stereo-ized" by something which creates a difference between the L and R channels - in that specific case maybe a combo of a doubling effect and stereo reverb (there's a kinda warbly/flangy sound in the Side channel), but there's gazillions of effects which may end up producing that effect, so hard to say.

Any ideas in what kind of doubling effect? Im curious because in mono I cant hear any doubling and you would hear it wouldnt you?

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:23 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
armans wrote:Most the width seems to be coming from the guitar but I also here the vocal in the sides. Does that mean that the vocal is panned? Or does it mean that the reverb is in stereo and that is what you hear in the side channel?

It sounds to me like there is a very light, mainly just early-reflections style reverb on the vocals, and that's a stereo effect appearing in the Sides component. It may be from a reverb machine, or it could be from the recording room via a stereo mic. But the main vocal is central.

Also, is there anyway to make out how the guitar was recorded or how it was treated to get that stereo effect?

If you listen to the left channel only, and then the right channel only, the staccato guitar chords sound quite different on the two sides. The right is noticeably brighter, so I suspect there were two mics looking at different parts of the guitar, probably with the neck mic panned right and the body mic panned left.

You need to remember that Mid and Side are just alternate ways of analysing the stereo image, but they won't tell you everything on their own. You also need to analyse the Left and Right channels too...

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:38 pm
by The Elf
armans wrote:Any ideas in what kind of doubling effect? Im curious because in mono I cant hear any doubling and you would hear it wouldnt you?
No, not necessarily. I often use a smudge of stereo detuning/delay and you wouldn't hear it overtly - it's just a tiny bit to add fairy dust and make the vocal sit forward of the mix - tiny, tiny amounts...

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:42 pm
by armans
The Elf wrote:
armans wrote: often use a smudge of stereo detuning/delay and you wouldn't hear it overtly - it's just a tiny bit to add fairy dust and make the vocal sit forward of the mix - tiny, tiny amounts...

I'll have to try that one day... I have used stereo delays on vocals but not with any detuning, Is this supposed to make it sound more like a real vocal double as opposed to a delay?

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:44 pm
by armans
Hugh Robjohns wrote:
If you listen to the left channel only, and then the right channel only, the staccato guitar chords sound quite different on the two sides. The right is noticeably brighter, so I suspect there were two mics looking at different parts of the guitar, probably with the neck mic panned right and the body mic panned left.

I went back and listened and hear what you mean... Thank you!

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:51 pm
by The Elf
armans wrote:
The Elf wrote:I often use a smudge of stereo detuning/delay and you wouldn't hear it overtly - it's just a tiny bit to add fairy dust and make the vocal sit forward of the mix - tiny, tiny amounts...
I'll have to try that one day... I have used stereo delays on vocals but not with any detuning, Is this supposed to make it sound more like a real vocal double as opposed to a delay?
No, it shouldn't sound doubled. If you can hear it, it's too much. It should just make the vocal slightly more '3D'. This is just a pet technique of mine.

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:22 pm
by Martin Walker
The Elf wrote:
armans wrote:
The Elf wrote:I often use a smudge of stereo detuning/delay and you wouldn't hear it overtly - it's just a tiny bit to add fairy dust and make the vocal sit forward of the mix - tiny, tiny amounts...
I'll have to try that one day... I have used stereo delays on vocals but not with any detuning, Is this supposed to make it sound more like a real vocal double as opposed to a delay?
No, it shouldn't sound doubled. If you can hear it, it's too much. It should just make the vocal slightly more '3D'. This is just a pet technique of mine.

Nice!

Must try that one in a subtle manner for added 3D - makes perfect sense theoretically 8-)


Martin

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:21 am
by Tomás Mulcahy
The Roland Dimension D does basically this (well it's mod not shift), it's set up perfectly to be subtle but sweet on all but setting 4. The Arturia version is spot on, there are others.

SoundToys Microshift emulates a few favoured old digital boxes. The only good thing about the Eventide Ultrachannel its its implementation of the classic Eventide micro pitch shift.

The Yamaha Symphonic preset on their multiFX boxes is nice too.

But I think the Roland is the best.

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:49 pm
by The Elf
Tomás Mulcahy wrote:The Roland Dimension D does basically this... But I think the Roland is the best.
...and the reason I still have a Dimension D in my rack. It's the ultimate one-trick pony.

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:24 pm
by Tomás Mulcahy
The Elf wrote:
Tomás Mulcahy wrote:The Roland Dimension D does basically this... But I think the Roland is the best.
...and the reason I still have a Dimension D in my rack. It's the ultimate one-trick pony.
Nice. I'd be interested in your opinion of the Arturia version compared to your real one :thumbup:

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:53 pm
by The Elf
So would I, but I'm not in the market to buy it!

Re: How to learn from listening to mid and side channels in a reference mix

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:08 pm
by Martin Walker
I always hesitate to post link to articles other than those in good 'ol SOS in forum threads, but in this case I found this one so useful that I bookmarked it some years ago because it's such a good and informative read:

https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/stereo ... nking.html


Martin