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Editing Solo Piano ???

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Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby DigitalMusicProduction » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:46 am

Hi

Would just like to ask if there is any way to render a professional Piano recording without having to spend countless hours sometimes days over editing. I understand compression attenuates for the dynamics and quantization for on the beat timing, however there doesn't seem to be a feature that facilitates for the velocity of notes.

I've just spent three days editing a solo Piano piece in regard to timing, velocity and tempo as it was recorded in free form. I'm in no way trying to achieve without working for the result, but was wondering if their was a feature in Logic Pro that could help to quicken the process up?
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby Kwackman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:20 am

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:I've just spent three days editing a solo Piano piece in regard to timing, velocity and tempo as it was recorded in free form.


If it's freeform, why is tempo an issue?
If it's freeform, is timing not part of the performance?
You described it as a "professional piano recording", so why are you editing the dynamics?
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby BJG145 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:24 am

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:...there doesn't seem to be a feature that facilitates for the velocity of notes...was wondering if their was a feature in Logic Pro that could help to quicken the process up?

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. What process are you trying to speed up....? Are you looking for something like a MIDI compressor...?

https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... ompressor/
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby CS70 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:26 am

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:Hi

Would just like to ask if there is any way to render a professional Piano recording without having to spend countless hours sometimes days over editing. I understand compression attenuates for the dynamics and quantization for on the beat timing, however there doesn't seem to be a feature that facilitates for the velocity of notes.

I've just spent three days editing a solo Piano piece in regard to timing, velocity and tempo as it was recorded in free form. I'm in no way trying to achieve without working for the result, but was wondering if their was a feature in Logic Pro that could help to quicken the process up?

The best way to render a professional piano is to have it played by someone who can produce professional results! :D

Otherwise: you probably have to spend the countless hours. While you can have "humanization" scripts, the fact is that a great player is in control of the notes he/she plays for each single note - including that note's dynamics and when it's gotta be played.

If you want to achieve a similar result, you too need too look at every single note. Miracles of MIDI, you can do it after the fact... but that, as you have noticed, it's way slower.

Hence the rule above.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby RichardT » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:59 am

No, I’m afraid there’s no shortcut for this if you want it to sound good.

I sometimes have to do the same - although I’m a good pianist, I’m not at concert artist level by a long way, and I record using electronic keyboards which can never respond in the same way as a real piano and often need velocity adjustment. Recording with even a small amount of latency affects the performance too.

Plus if my piece is improvised (if that ‘s what you mean by free-form) the problem is even bigger! There’s so much to think about when improvising that’s some performance aspects don’t reach my usual standard.

In Cubase there are some tricks I use that speed the process up a little. I don’t know if there are Logic equivalents.

- creating key commands for raising and lowering velocity a small amount

- using the logical editor which enables me, for example, to reduce the velocity of all notes louder than a certain threshold.

But essentially it’s a hard slog!
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby blinddrew » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am

It's worth thinking about the velocity curve you choose with your VSTi as well. Now that you've done a complete edit on a piece, are you finding that in general you're turning the dynamics down or up? If you are finding there's a bit of a trend then try using a slightly more extreme curve on the dynamics.
If there's not then you're back into the slog as Richard mentions above.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby DigitalMusicProduction » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:55 pm

Thanks for you feedback everyone, very helpful.

I suppose my question is mainly focused on velocity and the smoothing of notes, example, to record the Piano and then export that recording in to a plugin that would automatically detect the overall mechanics of the performance regarding velocity, and then reform it to what it assumes it should correctly sound like. Kind of like a "word correctional spelling" on a mobile. All that said I'm not sure such a plugin exists?

However i think BJG145 understud it correctly, until now i didn't even know there was such a thing a "MIDI compression" after watching the video tutorial it would seem this is the desired affect I'm looking for.

However this now creates a slight confusion between adding traditional "Compression" to attenuate for the overall dynamics as opposed to now applying "MIDI Compression" thus to flatten the overall velocity curve. Therefore are not both features effectively applying the same result ?

My performance is decent, and the overall recording sounds well, however like all of us, we have our own standard of quality and professionalism, especially when recording a commercial CD, therefore it needs to be CD quality.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby desmond » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:09 pm

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:would automatically detect the overall mechanics of the performance regarding velocity, and then reform it to what it assumes it should correctly sound like. Kind of like a "word correctional spelling" on a mobile.

No, there is no plugin that can detect your musical intention and then fix the music you give it.

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:However this now creates a slight confusion between adding traditional "Compression" to attenuate for the overall dynamics as opposed to now applying "MIDI Compression" thus to flatten the overall velocity curve. Therefore are not both features effectively applying the same result ?

Similar result, but through different means with different characteristics. Compressing the audio is different to compressing the key velocity, but both will "even out" the resultant part.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby blinddrew » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:09 pm

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:However this now creates a slight confusion between adding traditional "Compression" to attenuate for the overall dynamics as opposed to now applying "MIDI Compression" thus to flatten the overall velocity curve. Therefore are not both features effectively applying the same result ?
I wouldn't have thought so, or at least, not with a decent VSTi. If you compress the midi file you won't get the 'sound' of a key being struck hard. If you compress the audio file you'll get the 'sound' but not volume?
Again, I'd take an un-edited midi recording and try playing with different response shapes in your VSTi and see if that will more quickly move you to your desired end game. You'll still inevitably have to do a fair bit of work, but it might speed up the process a bit.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby DigitalMusicProduction » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:57 pm

I haven't seen one anywere, Does Logic Pro have a MIDI Compression plugin? Or would that be a separate purchase outside of Logic?
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby desmond » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:24 pm

DigitalMusicProduction wrote:I haven't seen one anywere, Does Logic Pro have a MIDI Compression plugin? Or would that be a separate purchase outside of Logic?

Yes, you can compress/expand and shift velocities directly in the region inspector (the "Dynamics" parameter).

There is also a MIDI plugin (Velocity Processor) and you can also do it with the Transform features too, and even in the edit pages in a few ways.

No need to buy anything extra.

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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby DigitalMusicProduction » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:03 pm

Excellent, thanks Desmond, will endeavour to find out..
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby BJG145 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:22 pm

There's a tutorial here which introduces the tool Desmond mentions along with a few other tips...might be worth a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiFWFfkyR4Q

You'd use MIDI compression to work on the performance, and audio compression to work on the mix.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby DigitalMusicProduction » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:57 pm

Thanks everyone for your links and support, very helpful.
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Re: Editing Solo Piano ???

Postby DigitalMusicProduction » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:07 am

BJG145 wrote:You'd use MIDI compression to work on the performance, and audio compression to work on the mix.

Interesting you mention this as I've just spent several hours comparing velocity compression to audio compression in Logic, the results from both we're very similar. I found the velocity processor attenuated more of a quiet less brighter sound from the Piano, and the vintage ETA compressor gave a slightly more brighter tone.

That said both we're better to perform with, however which out of these two effects processing tools should i be using to attenuate for a more comfortable performance and recording? as they are both very similar in their results..
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