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Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby merlyn » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:07 pm

I don't get the 24 bit thing. Why export at 24 bit if Reaper's internal bus is 64 bit?

The two streams are different. The bounce is getting converted to 64 bit and truncated twice.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby manwilde » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:13 pm

That has been addressed on another post. The 64 bits are for internal calculations within the DAW, but thus is not related to the actual file bit depht, which stays unchanged (the files are not upsampled to 64 bit).
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby merlyn » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:16 pm

manwilde wrote:The 64 bits are for internal calculations within the DAW, but it's not related to the actual file bit depht, which stays unchanged (the files are not upsampled to 64 bit).

Changing the bit depth is not upsampling. Inside Reaper the audio stream is 64 bit.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:20 pm

James Perrett wrote:Can you remove Console N and retry the null test?

Is the master fader at 0?

Are you using any dithering?
Just tried it without Console N on any tracks and still a significant difference.
Master fader is at 0.
No, haven't been dithering as I didn't think it was relevant when bouncing to 24 bit.

manwilde wrote:Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention is that I always mute the reference track and then click on the solo button to swiftly go back and forth the reference and the current mix whithout stopping playback..
Yep, exactly what I do. I have a couple of control surfaces so I can easily do this with the push of a button.

manwilde wrote:In which track is the ConsoleN set? Can you freeze it?.
I had it set on my 8 bus tracks, but removing it and running the bounce again still resulted in considerable difference on the null test.

manwilde wrote:And is the bounce mp3 or Wav?
The bounce is a 24-bit wav.

merlyn wrote:I don't get the 24 bit thing. Why export at 24 bit if Reaper's internal bus is 64 bit?

The two streams are different. The bounce is getting converted to 64 bit and truncated twice.
Couple of things here that are a step or two over my knowledge level, but
1) I think Reaper operates at a 32-bit float for processing rather than 64 bit?
2) I was previously of the understanding that rendering at anything more than 24 bit was pretty pointless as the difference would be far below any hearing threshold. But I am prepared to be proved wrong! :)

I'm just going to do a 32 bit render and see what that does.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:21 pm

merlyn wrote:
manwilde wrote:The 64 bits are for internal calculations within the DAW, but it's not related to the actual file bit depht, which stays unchanged (the files are not upsampled to 64 bit).

Changing the bit depth is not upsampling. Inside Reaper the audio stream is 64 bit.
I'll try a 64 bit render as well then! :D
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby manwilde » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:21 pm

Yes, sorry, "upsampled" is not the right term, but still you are confusing two different things. All the proccessing you might do on a mix is done at 64 bits, but the actual audio files are what they are, 24, 16 or whatever. I'll try to find the other post later.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby merlyn » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:25 pm

manwilde wrote: ... but still you are confusing two different things.

I'm pretty certain I'm not. :D
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby merlyn » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:28 pm

blinddrew wrote: But I am prepared to be proved wrong! :)

As am I. If you try it and it makes no difference you can rule that out. :thumbup:
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:36 pm

Just tried 32 bit and 64 bit bounces and both of them are failing the null test to the same audible magnitude as the 24 bit file.

The 24, 32 and 64 bit files don't null against each other either, but the difference is noticeably less than the difference with the active mix.

I need to actually get on with some stuff now so I'm going to park my experiments for now but if anyone has any further ideas I will pick up later on.
Thank you for all the help so far! :thumbup:
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby The Elf » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:40 pm

When you hit problems of this nature you have to challenge *every* assumption you're making - everything. Eventually you will track it down.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby Peevy » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:43 pm

Try doing a null test without any plugins active … just the raw tracks.

The null test sometimes doesn’t like plugins with variation when they run in real time. Reverb plugins can be a culprit if they have ‘spin and wander’, modulationy thingies going on.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby manwilde » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:47 pm

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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby Wonks » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:48 pm

Is the bounce a real time render or a 'fast as it can manage' render?
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:02 pm

Peevy wrote:Try doing a null test without any plugins active … just the raw tracks.

The null test sometimes doesn’t like plugins with variation when they run in real time. Reverb plugins can be a culprit if they have ‘spin and wander’, modulationy thingies going on.
The null test on bounces is with no plugins active, obviously I can't really do that with the live mix! :)


Wonks wrote:Is the bounce a real time render or a 'fast as it can manage' render?
It's an 'as fast as it can'. Will try a real time one at 64 bit.
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Re: Why doesn't my bounce sound like my active mix?

Postby Aled Hughes » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:11 pm

Intriguing.

Just tested on Reaper with a track I'm sorking on:

I disabled all plugins on the master track and bounced ("Full-speed Offline") a 24bit / 44.1kHz (all source files were also in this format) .I ticked the 'Add rendered items to new tracks in project' option in the render dialogue - have you done this? It imports the bounce on a new track in the correct place on the timeline).

They null perfectly.

I'll bet when you find your culprit it'll be a "DOH!" moment!

Long shot, have you got any FX by default on new tracks, or some headphone correction software such as Sonarwork playing tricks somewhere?

Anything at all that your rendered file could be going through to change the sound?

Might be worth either trying Reaper's "save live output to disk" feature to do a real-time bounce, or recording your interface's outputs some way so that you're sure to be recording what you're hearing, and then compare this to your bounce.

EDIT:
I'm on Reaper 6.24. I'll update to 6.28 and try again!
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