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This really annoys the crap out of me!!

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This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Kinh » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:32 am

People posting whole albums on youtube.
Type Depeche Mode in the search engine and it'll light up with nearly every album, greatest hits, you name it, it's there.
So instead of someone going out of their way to log on to their itunes account, spending a WHOPPING $15!!, they download it from their browser, transfer it to their phone and wallah! Now they've got a spare $15 in their pockets to spend on a pizza.

What is wrong with this world? How can we devalue something that gives us joy that much that we cant even be bothered paying for it. Who are these pricks that post albums online? Obviously they really like the music and band to want to buy their CD but not quite enough to respect their right to make a profit off others . I just dont understand that mentality. The world has become so bloody inconsiderate and selfish.

I remember when the industry bit off Napster's head. How is this any different? Youtube should be a source of advertisement, to showcase artists. Clearly that's no longer the case. It's being exploited by a bunch of f#cking freeloaders who care not about the industry and the artists they 'claim' to love.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby blinddrew » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:57 pm

Right, one thing at a time:
Kinh wrote:People posting whole albums on youtube.
Type Depeche Mode in the search engine and it'll light up with nearly every album, greatest hits, you name it, it's there.
So instead of someone going out of their way to log on to their itunes account, spending a WHOPPING $15!!, they download it from their browser, transfer it to their phone and wallah! Now they've got a spare $15 in their pockets to spend on a pizza.
How many people are actually doing this? Vs how many are listening on youtube because it's convenient / the CD is in the loft / they've already bought all the albums but just want to listen to a couple of the tracks / they're using their phone at work not the stereo at home etc etc.
Also $15 is a few days' wages in large parts of the globe.

Kinh wrote:What is wrong with this world? How can we devalue something that gives us joy that much that we cant even be bothered paying for it. Who are these pricks that post albums online? Obviously they really like the music and band to want to buy their CD but not quite enough to respect their right to make a profit off others . I just dont understand that mentality. The world has become so bloody inconsiderate and selfish.
Alternatively, they're huge fans and they want more people to know about the work. ContentID reallocates any advertising spend to the copyright holder so all that's happening is that the band are getting some advertising dollars that they wouldn't have got. Every play on youtube is not equal to a lost a sale.
Nobody has a 'right to make a profit' and a piece of work is only worth what people will pay for it. The DMCA allows copyright owners to remove infringing content - a lot of stays up because they choose to allow it and reap the benefits of the advertising income.

Kinh wrote:I remember when the industry bit off Napster's head. How is this any different? Youtube should be a source of advertisement, to showcase artists. Clearly that's no longer the case.
Well firstly, youtube is about much more than just music sharing. It is still, first and foremost, a video sharing platform. The high level stats of how the content breaks down are available. Secondly, Youtube 'shouldn't' be anything apart from what it's users decide it should be. It's social media, no-one gets to make the rules about what gets shared other than the users.

Kinh wrote: It's being exploited by a bunch of f#cking freeloaders who care not about the industry and the artists they 'claim' to love.
Alternatively it's providing a vital marketing and income stream, for free, to thousands upon thousands of content creators across the globe.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Logarhythm » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:37 pm

I kind of agree with Drew* on this, although since I only make music for my own enjoyment I don't have much financial interest attached to the workings of YouTube.
Nonetheless I can't be the only person that uses it for research? I check out most things in their because the 20 second previews that e.g. Amazon gives aren't really sufficient to properly judge a piece, and if I like what I hear I'll buy the CD.

*I actually listened to, and enjoyed, a couple of Drew's pieces on YouTube the other day after a discussion on Instagram, but don't recall seeing any adverts. I think that means I owe him £0.003 or thereabouts :shock:
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby CS70 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:01 pm

While a few people may use it for research, most people uses it to listen to music, period. Denying that is like saying that there's generally nice weather in Oslo ;-)
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby blinddrew » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:37 pm

Not quite most: https://www.statista.com/statistics/653 ... ctivities/
But it is the most common activity. Not by a long way though.
Also worth mentioning that the most popular music sites are official channels and contentid has paid out over $2bn in royalties since 2007.

My point being simply that one shouldn't conflate the bathwater with the baby.

P.s. Logarhythm, i do accept cheques, but i think your estimate might be about 100x too high ;)
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby blinddrew » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:40 pm

Oh yes, another p.s. youtube recently changed their ad funding model. You need 1000 subscribers to your channel now before anything gets monetised.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby CS70 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:57 pm

blinddrew wrote:Oh yes, another p.s. youtube recently changed their ad funding model. You need 1000 subscribers to your channel now before anything gets monetised.

Indeed, another version of that familiar YouTube trick - don't steal a million dollars from one person, but steal one dollar from a million people. It's just a little money..
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Kinh » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:00 am

blinddrew wrote:How many people are actually doing this?
A lot. Probably more people than those buying.

blinddrew wrote:Alternatively, they're huge fans and they want more people to know about the work. ContentID reallocates any advertising spend to the copyright holder so all that's happening is that the band are getting some advertising dollars that they wouldn't have got. Every play on youtube is not equal to a lost a sale.
Do you seriously think members of Fleetwood Mac or Duran Duran who are worth millions have any interest monitoring the chump change they make in youtube advertising vs the money they're losing in publishing?
blinddrew wrote:Nobody has a 'right to make a profit' and a piece of work is only worth what people will pay for it. The DMCA allows copyright owners to remove infringing content - a lot of stays up because they choose to allow it and reap the benefits of the advertising income.
Wrong. A piece of work, in this case a CD/mp3 is a set price, set not by the buyer but the seller. I dont think you know what's going on at the moment with the DMCA and how the industry's been fighting youtube for a fairer deal for years. The 'coypywrite owners' are not happy and are pushing for change so I dont know why you'd have that opinion, it doesn't make sense, especially from someone who (presumably) works in the music industry.

blinddrew wrote:Well firstly, youtube is about much more than just music sharing. It is still, first and foremost, a video sharing platform. The high level stats of how the content breaks down are available. Secondly, Youtube 'shouldn't' be anything apart from what it's users decide it should be. It's social media, no-one gets to make the rules about what gets shared other than the users.
Really?? So why is there no porn on youtube, why is there no Islam extremism being promoted?

blinddrew wrote:Alternatively it's providing a vital marketing and income stream, for free, to thousands upon thousands of content creators across the globe.
Not for free; at a price. The price is the cost of a CD or Mp3 that would have otherwise been purchased by the listener/pirate/thief had it not been in an easily accessible format.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Still Vibrations » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:34 am

Hugh Robjohns summed it up perfectly on another thread on this same business forum:

"I think the Genie has escaped from that particular bottle. There is no 'technology that can give music a perceived value' -- value is a human perception and pre-recorded music is now perceived to be valueless (ie. free) by most people."

My classical music royalties from streaming are £0.004 for an 18 minute piece for eight instruments, I wish it was not the case, but this is the real world we live in.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Logarhythm » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:18 am

CS70 wrote:While a few people may use it for research, most people uses it to listen to music, period. Denying that is like saying that there's generally nice weather in Oslo ;-)

All I'm saying is that it isn't too far of a stretch to see that consumers could easily adopt the same approach I do, and before you know it everyone will be back to purchasing CD albums at £15.99 a go.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

@Blinddrew: I believe in paying for music, so happy to donate the full £0.003 :P
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Still Vibrations » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:04 am

Logarhythm wrote:
All I'm saying is that it isn't too far of a stretch to see that consumers could easily adopt the same approach I do, and before you know it everyone will be back to purchasing CD albums at £15.99 a go.

I think CDs are finished. A lot of young people don't even have CD players and I know musicians who listen to music on iPhones, often in random play mode, or on computer speakers.
The other problem is CDs are too long and frequently there are a few excellent tracks and the rest are fillers.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby blinddrew » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:37 am

Kinh wrote:
blinddrew wrote:How many people are actually doing this?
A lot. Probably more people than those buying.
Without any statistics this is just speculation. This is not a sound basis regulation.

Kinh wrote:
blinddrew wrote:Alternatively, they're huge fans and they want more people to know about the work. ContentID reallocates any advertising spend to the copyright holder so all that's happening is that the band are getting some advertising dollars that they wouldn't have got. Every play on youtube is not equal to a lost a sale.
Do you seriously think members of Fleetwood Mac or Duran Duran who are worth millions have any interest monitoring the chump change they make in youtube advertising vs the money they're losing in publishing?
2 things here, firstly most monitoring is done by bots administered by third parties under contract from a record label. If your bot is not doing a good job there are plenty of other companies out there offering alternative ones.
Secondly, it's not chump change. If a 6-year-old kid can make $11m in one year with a toy review channel then if you're a A-list band who can't turn over more than a pittance then that is a failure of your business model not of the system. The world changes, your business model needs to change too.

Kinh wrote:
blinddrew wrote:Nobody has a 'right to make a profit' and a piece of work is only worth what people will pay for it. The DMCA allows copyright owners to remove infringing content - a lot of stays up because they choose to allow it and reap the benefits of the advertising income.
Wrong. A piece of work, in this case a CD/mp3 is a set price, set not by the buyer but the seller. I dont think you know what's going on at the moment with the DMCA and how the industry's been fighting youtube for a fairer deal for years. The 'coypywrite owners' are not happy and are pushing for change so I dont know why you'd have that opinion, it doesn't make sense, especially from someone who (presumably) works in the music industry.
You can set your price at whatever you like, but if no-one buys it then it's wrong. The market determines the price it's willing to stand. This is a business model problem again.
The industry has been fighting youtube for years because they're unwilling to adapt to new technology, despite being in the best position to make a profit from it. Consistently the content industry fights any new technology tooth and nail until eventually it realises how it could have been making a profit from it for years.
"Copyright owners" is a very loose term, the major labels have been fighting this for years, a lot of indies and artists are actually very happy with the new tools and distribution mechanisms.

Kinh wrote:
blinddrew wrote:Well firstly, youtube is about much more than just music sharing. It is still, first and foremost, a video sharing platform. The high level stats of how the content breaks down are available. Secondly, Youtube 'shouldn't' be anything apart from what it's users decide it should be. It's social media, no-one gets to make the rules about what gets shared other than the users.
Really?? So why is there no porn on youtube, why is there no Islam extremism being promoted?
Not sure what your point is here? Youtube is a private company, they can choose what they want on their platform and they've decided not to have porn on it. Porn is easily identifiable and flagged by users, there is plenty of extremism on there but this is a far, far more complex moderating issue. As is music licensing and fair use. But the fact remains that thousands of DMCA takedowns are issued and acted upon every day. If a video remains up it's either because it has a strong legal argument or it has been permitted.

Kinh wrote:
blinddrew wrote:Alternatively it's providing a vital marketing and income stream, for free, to thousands upon thousands of content creators across the globe.
Not for free; at a price. The price is the cost of a CD or Mp3 that would have otherwise been purchased by the listener/pirate/thief had it not been in an easily accessible format.
2 things again. firstly every stream is not a lost sale. It just isn't, whether it's convenience, try before buy, research, whatever, it is simply inaccurate to assume that everyone who listens to a track on youtube would otherwise have bought a physical copy. More likely they simply wouldn't have listened at all.
Secondly, as Still Vibrations points out, CDs (and any form or hard medium) are a dying format. In fact, owning music is increasingly dying out as a concept. If your business model cannot react to how your customers behaviours are changing then your model is flawed.

Just to get a couple of things clear, I am not pro-piracy. I buy my music. But did I tape songs off the radio when I was kid? Sure I did. And probably bought a copy further down the line. Did I make copies of mates cassettes when they bought them (and vice versa)? Sure I did. And subsequently bought a copy of the CD further down the line. There may be some here who never engaged in this kind of practice but probably not many I'll wager. Home taping didn't kill music and neither will youtube, it will just lead to a new and different market.
As to copyright, I think it has largely lost the plot. Since we're talking about youtube, let's talk about the US version of copyright. It's a mechanism. People often forget this. The purpose is the creation of new works. The mechanism to inspire this is a limited-term monopoly on the works, i.e. copyright. The return value to the citizen/state is the move of these works to the public domain at the end of the copyright term. In my opinion that limited term is far, far too long.

(here's hoping I've got the quote marks in the right place)
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Forum Admin » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:34 am

blinddrew wrote: Youtube is a private company, they can choose what they want on their platform...

Hmmm, not sure about this.

"YouTube is an American video-sharing website headquartered in San Bruno, California. The service was created by three former PayPal employees—Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, and Jawed Karim—in February 2005. Google bought the site in November 2006 for US$1.65 billion; YouTube now operates as one of Google's subsidiaries." Source: Wikipedia

After re-structuring Google is now a subsidiary of Alphabet Inc, but Google is a publicly floated company and trades on the international stock exchanges. It's not private.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby blinddrew » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:37 pm

Good correction, what I meant is that it (and I mean Alphabet and all its subsidiaries) is an independent organisation. It is not an arm of the state, therefore it can choose what goes on the platform and what doesn't - it doesn't need to worry about prior restraint or the first amendment. It is answerable to its board and, ultimately, its shareholders.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby The Bunk » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:10 pm

Still Vibrations wrote:The other problem is CDs are too long and frequently there are a few excellent tracks and the rest are fillers.

I thought exactly that in many cases with CDs I bought when they started becoming the main format. Bands used to have to "only" make 45 mins of music, unless there was genuinely a good case for making a double-album. Then with CDs they have 80 mins to fill and started thinking they had to fill it; one of my favourite bands at the time (early 90's in this case) ended up doing two or three re-recordings of older songs, two or three throw-away cover versions etc which thinned the whole thing down. I'd much rather get 45 mins of quality than 80 minutes of some quality and some filth.
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Forum Admin » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:44 pm

True, but I enjoyed it when my fave bands put out their first CDs of previously vinyl-only albums/singles and included the 'bonus tracks' garnered from the B-sides of their vinyl singles -- or in some cases, the full A-side where a single was released that wasn't actually on the album (bands used to do that back in the day).
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby OneWorld » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:47 pm

Still Vibrations wrote:
Logarhythm wrote:
All I'm saying is that it isn't too far of a stretch to see that consumers could easily adopt the same approach I do, and before you know it everyone will be back to purchasing CD albums at £15.99 a go.

I think CDs are finished. A lot of young people don't even have CD players and I know musicians who listen to music on iPhones, often in random play mode, or on computer speakers.
The other problem is CDs are too long and frequently there are a few excellent tracks and the rest are fillers.

And despite the claims that cds were bomb proof and the experience of vinyl scratching and skipping through tracks had come to an end proved to be quite untrue. Whilst a lot more robust than vinyl, they weren't quite as robust as the manufacturers claimed
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby The Bunk » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:49 pm

Equally true, good point, and I have a number of them myself and there were some belters, yes. But then the record companies started going a bit over the top I thought...another re-release / re-master with increasingly barrel-scraping "bonus tracks" added. I was working at the Warner Music Distribution centre (ok, warehouse) for much of the period and I lost track of the number of Led Zep re-masters / re-hashes that came out. The first one was good, but then...

ooops, someone got in before my post which was a reply to Forum Admin...!
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby The Bunk » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:53 pm

OneWorld wrote:And despite the claims that cds were bomb proof and the experience of vinyl scratching and skipping through tracks had come to an end proved to be quite untrue. Whilst a lot more robust that vinyl, they were quite as robust as the manufacturers claimed

Bang on, and that really p*sses me off!!
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Re: This really annoys the crap out of me!!

Postby Sam Inglis » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:02 pm

The music industry really screwed up the transition to digital, with the result that there is now a widespread perception that music has no intrinsic value and should be available for free. Contrast that with the situation in book publishing, where publishers really fought their corner and have largely preserved the idea that a book is a thing of value that needs to be paid for, whether in physical or electronic form.
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