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Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:38 am

I sometimes wonder at the amazing amount of 'free' music on Youtube, and that's not just music uploaded by aspiring amateurs but artists of international reknown.

But where does the PRS come into this, as it is so easy to go onto Youtube and download a video, I cannot understand why people bother with iTunes etc Youtube is what I consider to be a world wide jukebox.

I am considering doing a few charity nights at a local Labour Club where once a month they have a music night where a person will play a particular genre of music (eg one night we had a Dave Bowie night, another was a Northern Soul night etc) and we chat about the music and yep, have a few pints too. I want to try and introduce people to the wider world of music by way of jazz and on another occasion World Music (Many of my chums just think music is just made in UK/USA, everywhere else they just make a din with their bongos and jump about chanting in honour of whatever deity they worship lol) I would use videos on YouTube - would I be infringing copyright, even though all the music is there for all to see on Youtube anyway?
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:05 pm

A couple things. When you create a YT user, you agree that you can *stream* the content but not download it. The reason being is that YT makes money by placing advertisement on content.

When someone uses your recording on a video, YT recognizes it and record a copyright claim (usually from your publisher). YT also sometimes recognizes covers. Every time an ad on the video generates revenue (typically people clicking a banner or watching over 30 secs of advertisement), part of the revenue goes to your publisher, which in turn takes its cut and deliver the rest to you.

If someone makes a cover and it's not recognized, it's much trickier. Technically they cannot upload it without buying a mechanical license (from the Harry Fox agency) and permission from the publisher to make a video for it (a "synch license"). "Fair use" is often used as a shortcut but it almost never applies as a cover is never transformative enough.

(Even if the cover is recognized as such by YT, you still technically need a synch license.. but most publishers are ok with just getting the money).

That said, all depends on the copyright holder. Some people don't mind as they see it as marketing. Some do, and some brutally do. If a copyright owner raises an issue, the result may be your video disappearing (unless you negotiate a deal with the owner) and you'll gain a strike from YT. A few strikes and your channel will be deleted.

It also depends, and that's a big point of contention, of whether or not the copyright owner discovers the breach. As you can imagine, big outfits may have the resource and manpower to somewhat monitor YT and perhaps discover an unfair use within, say, a month of upload.. but a smaller player, such as a self publishing indie act or a small label, simply won't.

So to your question: if YT recognizes the song, u're more or less ok, if not - yes, you should obtain mechanical licenses (or see if the publisher has already negotiated with YT) and a synch license. If you don't - like gazillion users don't - you risk your videos/channel taken down.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby blinddrew » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:26 pm

CS70 has covered the crux of it, but if, for example, you were just using tracks uploaded by official channels (where there's no doubt about copyright ownership), you'd still need to make sure that the venue has the appropriate PRS licence to play music in public.
Most WMCs etc will have these licences as a matter of course (to play radio etc) but it's worth checking.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:30 pm

I'm actually putting together a cover song to put on YT and FB so had to study up :D
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:52 pm

It's not so much that I want to out anything on YT but can I put a show on, in a venue that is a fully paid up PRS venue, the local Labour Club, and play music from YT

What usually happens on these music nights is someone brings along their vinyl, CDs or tunes stored on a laptop (I don't know the tunes' provenance in the latter case but that's by the by in respect of my query here) and what I propose is taking my laptop, plugging it in to the 50" LCD telly, logging on to the club's WIFI and streaming tunes from YT? I am not copying the tunes from anywhere.

I suppose what I am asking in essence is, can YT content be streamed to a public audience in a public place where that content will include content that is protected by copyright - eg an 'established recording artist'
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby Wonks » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:11 pm

I'd read the YouTube terms of service. At a glance, I'd say you would be OK unless it was for 'commercial purposes', which YouTube forbids:

5.1 E. You agree not to use the Service (including the YouTube Player) for any of the following commercial uses unless you obtain YouTube's prior written approval:

i. the sale of access to the Service

This is probably the grey area with regards to displaying it in a club where people have to pay a membership fee. Whilst probably not intended to stop the sort of use you are talking about, you'd probably get lawyers who'd argue it both ways.

And it must be streamed, so you can't download the content for display on demand.

If you stay within YouTube's rules, then I'd imagine all the copyright issues would fall on YouTube's shoulders.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:40 am

Yep, that's what I sort of guessed. Its a not for profit gig, no no ey changing hands, though people would have the opportunity to donate to the charitable cause I represent. That bei g said, it does appear to be a grey area, all of which is a lawyer's bread and butter and I don't want to be the meat in a lawyers sandwich.

At a slight tangent, I have often wondered why there isn't an app on my phone that links to the jukebox in the pub, which in turn is linked to YT/Spotify et all and from my phone I can play a tune, I guess the copyright issues are so perplexing that the orange isn't worth the squeeze
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby blinddrew » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:32 am

OneWorld wrote:At a slight tangent, I have often wondered why there isn't an app on my phone that links to the jukebox in the pub, which in turn is linked to YT/Spotify et all and from my phone I can play a tune, I guess the copyright issues are so perplexing that the orange isn't worth the squeeze
Yep, you might as well just give the RIAA a blank cheque.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:40 pm

blinddrew wrote:
OneWorld wrote:At a slight tangent, I have often wondered why there isn't an app on my phone that links to the jukebox in the pub, which in turn is linked to YT/Spotify et all and from my phone I can play a tune, I guess the copyright issues are so perplexing that the orange isn't worth the squeeze
Yep, you might as well just give the RIAA a blank cheque.

well every time I play a tune on the jukebox I pay 1.00 pound for 3 tunes, why not have a payment system whereby that 1.00 is charged to me by way of an account?
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:40 pm

OneWorld wrote:Yep, that's what I sort of guessed. Its a not for profit gig, no no ey changing hands, though people would have the opportunity to donate to the charitable cause I represent. That bei g said, it does appear to be a grey area, all of which is a lawyer's bread and butter and I don't want to be the meat in a lawyers sandwich.

At a slight tangent, I have often wondered why there isn't an app on my phone that links to the jukebox in the pub, which in turn is linked to YT/Spotify et all and from my phone I can play a tune, I guess the copyright issues are so perplexing that the orange isn't worth the squeeze

They aren't that perplexing? In every license it's written that you cannot stream for commercial uses. Doesn't get more commercial than a jukebox :)
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby blinddrew » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:31 pm

CS70 wrote:
OneWorld wrote:Yep, that's what I sort of guessed. Its a not for profit gig, no no ey changing hands, though people would have the opportunity to donate to the charitable cause I represent. That bei g said, it does appear to be a grey area, all of which is a lawyer's bread and butter and I don't want to be the meat in a lawyers sandwich.

At a slight tangent, I have often wondered why there isn't an app on my phone that links to the jukebox in the pub, which in turn is linked to YT/Spotify et all and from my phone I can play a tune, I guess the copyright issues are so perplexing that the orange isn't worth the squeeze

They aren't that perplexing? In every license it's written that you cannot stream for commercial uses. Doesn't get more commercial than a jukebox :)
I think that's the point, non-commercial is easy. But what if you do want to legally use it commercially? Working out that licensing would be a nightmare. Which is one of the reasons we have library music! :)
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby ManFromGlass » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:57 pm

I don’t know if a labour club would fall under this same scenario, but if you were having the event at a pub wouldn’t the pub be paying a fee to the local performing rights society to play music? So would YouTube’s fall under the same license? Sounds like it could be another gray (grey? I never know) area.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:50 pm

blinddrew wrote:
CS70 wrote:
OneWorld wrote:Yep, that's what I sort of guessed. Its a not for profit gig, no no ey changing hands, though people would have the opportunity to donate to the charitable cause I represent. That bei g said, it does appear to be a grey area, all of which is a lawyer's bread and butter and I don't want to be the meat in a lawyers sandwich.

At a slight tangent, I have often wondered why there isn't an app on my phone that links to the jukebox in the pub, which in turn is linked to YT/Spotify et all and from my phone I can play a tune, I guess the copyright issues are so perplexing that the orange isn't worth the squeeze

They aren't that perplexing? In every license it's written that you cannot stream for commercial uses. Doesn't get more commercial than a jukebox :)
I think that's the point, non-commercial is easy. But what if you do want to legally use it commercially? Working out that licensing would be a nightmare. Which is one of the reasons we have library music! :)

Streaming in the context of a business needs a mechanical license. To obtain one, there's of course a cost and a degree of administration. It would be nice to have a one stop shop, but then there's not necessarily a one stop shop also for purchasing the beer to sell or keep your books and pay your taxes and so on... a business it's a business because it has - or learns - the administration necessary to operate, or it outsources to them who do.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:57 pm

blinddrew wrote:non-commercial is easy.

And as a not in passing, it's not necessarily that non-commercial equals free for all.

Copyright is the right of decide how your creation is used, and non-commercial are not automatically granted that right. And it's a good thing: say that you play Satanic metal and suddenly a non-profit religious charity wants to use it in ad that promotes religion. The intent can be non-commercial but you may well not agree to its use. While if the charity pays for it, there's no problem - thru mechanical licenses, you've already pre-agreed that money is a good exchange for any use.

So while YT allows you to stream publicly for non-profit, that means that you can stream publicly the content that you own (say your own video of the company party), but not Bohemian Rhapsody, because Queen (or better their publisher) may still decide that they want to be paid for it.
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:02 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:I don’t know if a labour club would fall under this same scenario, but if you were having the event at a pub wouldn’t the pub be paying a fee to the local performing rights society to play music? So would YouTube’s fall under the same license? Sounds like it could be another gray (grey? I never know) area.

The Labour Club in question pays its PRS dues. They have regular music nights, but I have never seen anything streamed before, is that because....

a) no one has ever bothered

b) no one can (because of the PRS issues)

Up the road, at one of the boozers, a bloke comes in with his laptop, and plays tunes of a Friday and Saturday. I think it's actually karaoke night, but no one bothers singing. I am sure the pub pays its PRS dues, it has a juke box, woe betide them if they don't! it's a town centre pub so hardly inconspicuous. So what's the difference between music on his laptop, music on the jukebox and music streamed from YT given that music on YT is freely available, or are we supposed to send the artist some money each time we play a tune on YT? if that is the case then I owe a lot of money to a lot of artists :-(

I suppose the difference is private vs public performance? eg I buy a CD and I have paid my dues, and I can play the CD in the privacy of my home, but what if I take a boom box to a public park on a summer's day?

And what of the karaoke bloke with tunes on his laptop? they are not MIDI files because he is basically a mobile DJ


CS70......"They aren't that perplexing? In every license it's written that you cannot stream for commercial uses. Doesn't get more commercial than a jukebox :)"

But it is not for commercial uses, it's for charity, no entry fee, no tickets. That being said I fully appreciate there are many many 'charitable' ventures that are lucrative that masquerade as having charitable intent - there's gold in them thar collecting tins!

And in the jukebox example I gave, I would be paying from my phone, as per contactless payments et al. Whether the money is paid by way of a silver nickel going into the slot or a swipe of a Qcode - same difference isn't it? the old Black Cat v White Cat adage, as long as it catches mice, apart from the mouse, who cares?
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:03 pm

ManFromGlass wrote:I don’t know if a labour club would fall under this same scenario, but if you were having the event at a pub wouldn’t the pub be paying a fee to the local performing rights society to play music? So would YouTube’s fall under the same license? Sounds like it could be another gray (grey? I never know) area.

Alas, it's not grey at all. The business need to acquire mechanical licenses (and in there's "flat" agreements so it doesn't need to do it on a per-song basis) and often must also issue a monthly reporting.

This is a different fee than, for example, the one paid for having a band play live music (which is not mechanical).

The system seems byzantine at first (and there's surely ways to makes it simpler) but once you get into the ways that music is played and how the various actors make a living, it's actually reasonably rational.

What is really broken is how all the money so collected then becomes compensation for the artists - meaning how the calculations are done. But that's a different thread...
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:11 pm

OneWorld wrote:But it is not for commercial uses, it's for charity, no entry fee, no tickets. That being said I fully appreciate there are many many 'charitable' ventures that are lucrative that masquerade as having charitable intent - there's gold in them thar collecting tins!

Yeah but that's the point I'm trying to make: you have different players which place different requirements on you and the "non-commercial" point doesn't get you free on all of them.

YouTube is nice, and says that for non commercial use you can actually stream publicly (while a business can't: YT is targeted towards private use). What they say is "it's ok to use our platform".

But YT doesn't say anything (and cannot say anything) about what the owners of what you stream using that platform allow or not. It's not YT property to decide upon, so YT is very careful to state that it doesn't.

So you can stream publicly your own material that you uploaded on YT for example (but if includes other people content, you must have obtained licenses before uploading it... unless it's fair use). But the moment you stream someone else's video, you need a license for the content regardless of the commercial intention or not, because it's not private use, and YT (or Spotify) has negotiated only license for private consumption.

As in my post up, it makes good sense because the owner may well not agree with your use - whether is commercial or not - and, since it is his creation, it's his right to decide whether to agree (it's a bit like private property).
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:14 pm

CS70 wrote:
ManFromGlass wrote:I don’t know if a labour club would fall under this same scenario, but if you were having the event at a pub wouldn’t the pub be paying a fee to the local performing rights society to play music? So would YouTube’s fall under the same license? Sounds like it could be another gray (grey? I never know) area.

Alas, it's not grey at all. The business need to acquire mechanical licenses (and in there's "flat" agreements so it doesn't need to do it on a per-song basis) and often must also issue a monthly reporting.

This is a different fee than, for example, the one paid for having a band play live music (which is not mechanical).

The system seems byzantine at first (and there's surely ways to makes it simpler) but once you get into the ways that music is played and how the various actors make a living, it's actually reasonably rational.

What is really broken is how all the money so collected then becomes compensation for the artists - meaning how the calculations are done. But that's a different thread...

I guess what i am getting at is, does the PRS differentiate between which kind of mechanical artefact actually plays the music - a gramophone, a juke box (HDD) or a streamer?
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby OneWorld » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:17 pm

Anyway, I've given up on my charitable intent, it's not worth the bother
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Re: Music on YouTube

Postby CS70 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:19 pm

OneWorld wrote:I guess what i am getting at is, does the PRS differentiate between which kind of mechanical artefact actually plays the music - a gramophone, a juke box (HDD) or a streamer?

No.

A big challenge for the big streamers was how complicated the system was in the face of thef fact that computers allow uploads of thousands of compositions per day, as opposite to "old times" were compositions were deposited manually . In the US this has just been fixed...
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