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Gender bias/discrimination in music

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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby CS70 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:35 pm

Arpangel wrote:By talking about possible gender inequality in the music business is actually acknowledging that one exists

The weather was so good outside that the concept of "hypothesis" has probably left for a while, don't worry, it'll likely come back soon.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby merlyn » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:27 pm

At the last gig I did there was drums, bass, guitar, trumpet, vocals, sound engineer, bar staff, venue manager, promoter. Nine people working and two were female. As a fun quiz please guess which two were female. :D

My data is : Sunday afternoon jazz gig : Ratio : 2/9
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby N i g e l » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:50 pm

Arpangel wrote:....., it’s a bit ironic that no females have replied to this thread. If any women out there are reading this, please make a contribution, .....

Note that - maybe not on this site but on other forums woman feel obliged to go incogneto and keep a low profile due to the "banter"{top of the list would be a synth forum with a non PC name}.

The Elf wrote:Discrimination, in *any* form, is a miserable, debilitating thing - and I include the inappropriately named (IMHO) 'positive discrimination' in this. The right person for the job is the right person

I dont object to a bit of +ve discrimination to break the vicious circle where there has been a historic skew. If there are a lack of role models then there will be less people being inspired to follow in their footsteps and the process will self sustain.

i was going to count up the ratio of M/F pictures in this months mag but got sidetracked at the 2600
:)
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby James Perrett » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:33 pm

merlyn wrote:My data is : Sunday afternoon jazz gig : Ratio : 2/9

Had a slightly better ratio at the Saturday night folk gig with 2 duos, sound engineer, bar and merchandise which comprised 4 women and 5 men.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Tim Gillett » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:34 am

Quote: "...As a doctor he knows there are basic biological differences between the sexes, but he believes our biology can’t fully explain why men and women’s life chances - from pay, to careers are still so unequal in the UK."

Nobody is saying biology explains everything. But to suggest it explains little or nothing about human behaviour? Equally foolish. Where is the sensible balance?
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:59 am

I take it you haven't seen the programme then?
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby shufflebeat » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:02 am

blinddrew wrote:Conflating two things there Arpangel, 1) is it a reality, 2) is it a problem.

That suggests some interesting logical branches. Let's say, for instance it is a reality that most jobs on the hands-on side of the music business (not in a #metoo way) are men and then suggest that's not actually a problem.

What is it that the women are doing at the same time and why is it (is it?) less attractive to men than discussing old synths and knob twiddling (not in a #metoo way).

I've struggled with the idea that cooking was either lowly women's work or, alternatively, a niche for angry artistic men because the town I grew up in was famous for the fact that men did most of the daily cooking. 25 miles down the road was different and there were all kinds of assumptions that were completely alien to me.

There is a corresponding assumption in this thread that women should want to do this, which may or may not be the case but it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Maybe all this is a waste of precious time and we should be doing something more important.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Dynamic Mike » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:07 am

Tim Gillett wrote:Can we just look in some detail at some employment ratios? I mean good, reliable stats about the current division of labour across a wide range of job categories. Here's one source:

https://careersmart.org.uk/occupations/ ... own-gender

The funny thing is if that list was the other way up it would make totally the opposite point!

A good generalisation from the list would be that women generally work with people & men predominantly work with things. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the list simply exhibits preference rather than bias?

From observations in the workplace it appears to me that women spend half their working life on social media, whereas blokes seem content with just staring out of the window. Vive la différence.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Tim Gillett » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:30 am

Dynamic Mike wrote:
Tim Gillett wrote:Can we just look in some detail at some employment ratios? I mean good, reliable stats about the current division of labour across a wide range of job categories. Here's one source:

https://careersmart.org.uk/occupations/ ... own-gender

...A good generalisation from the list would be that women generally work with people & men predominantly work with things. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the list simply exhibits preference rather than bias? ...

But that might be too much like simple common sense. Highly suspect. ;)

Great that at least one person was prepared to actually look at the apparently heretical document, think and comment. Thanks DM.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:47 am

You really should try and watch that show, it's very informative.

Based in science, as opposed to the much-vaunted but hilarious-when-not-actually-tragic "common sense".

It absolutely does a much better job at demolishing your whole line of (circular) "reasoning" than I care to in this venue.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby awjoe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:53 am

merlyn wrote:At the last gig I did there was drums, bass, guitar, trumpet, vocals, sound engineer, bar staff, venue manager, promoter. Nine people working and two were female. As a fun quiz please guess which two were female. :D

My data is : Sunday afternoon jazz gig : Ratio : 2/9

Let's see how well stereotypes work - the vocalist and bar staff were women. Any prize? Or do I just get accused of shallow stereotyping?
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:07 am

My bet would be on the bar staff both being women.

And the ratio was 7:2.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Tim Gillett » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:You really should try and watch that show, it's very informative.

Based in science, as opposed to the much-vaunted but hilarious-when-not-actually-tragic "common sense".

It absolutely does a much better job at demolishing your whole line of (circular) "reasoning" than I care to in this venue.

Perhaps the TV show does a better job partly by cherry picking the experts it consults! One of the show's consultants was Gina Rippon. She represents one perspective in the field. Simon Baron- Cohen offers a slightly different perspective.

Here's a debate between Gina Rippon and Baron Cohen. It presents the two perspectives.

https://youtu.be/kxfaE-gWZ9I
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:49 am

Perhaps you should just watch the show instead of speculating on what it contains.
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