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How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:25 pm

MOF wrote:
And one of the main advantages of the EU - due to its inherent fragmentation - is that's it's damn hard to buy..
Until it becomes Federal, though I can’t see that happening, essentially northern countries refusing to bail out southern countries, but who knows?

Well, then it won't be the EU any longer - it will be something different.

As for refusals, last week's recovery package deal suggests the opposite. Why the negativity? :bouncy:
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby MOF » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:10 pm

Well, then it won't be the EU any longer - it will be something different.
It will still be the EU, it’s federal road map has already been drawn up and agreed to, the Euro was part of that package.
It will simply ( :lol: ) be the harmonisation of taxes, government legislation, defence etc from Brussels.
Individual countries will effectively become states dealing with local issues just like California, Florida, New York etc do now.
As for refusals, last week's recovery package deal suggests the opposite. Why the negativity?
The refusal nearly happened, ‘grant versus loan’ was at issue and that is only going to get worse when it’s all about propping up entire countries that refuse to take the necessary financial reforms. Greece (still kicking that can down the road more than ten years later) was just about containable but if Italy collapses that’s a whole different ball game.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:59 pm

MOF wrote:
Well, then it won't be the EU any longer - it will be something different.
It will still be the EU, it’s federal road map has already been drawn up and agreed to, the Euro was part of that package.

Well one day hopefully my 5 years old son will be a grandfather, but I wouldn't buy him bifocals yet. :)

All the above is the fruit of your imagination. The EU is a quite precise (and painfully technical) set of agreements between nation states. Europe - on the other side - is both a geographical connotation and an idea. But it's not the EU.

As for refusals, last week's recovery package deal suggests the opposite. Why the negativity?
The refusal nearly happened

There.

Focusing on a negative that did not happen disregarding the positive that did happen = negativity.

Why? :D
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:08 pm

We made something of a national habit of that with regards to the EU... ;)
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby MOF » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:56 am

All the above is the fruit of your imagination. The EU is a quite precise (and painfully technical) set of agreements between nation states. Europe - on the other side - is both a geographical connotation and an idea. But it's not the EU.
Nothing to do with imagination, I never mentioned Europe and neither did you, we were talking about the EU which from day one of its Common Market origins envisaged a federal system and neglected to mention that to the British population in the 1970s.
The 'quite precise (and painfully technical) set of agreements between nation states' you mention is the very reason why the EUphile leaders want a federal system so that all those wrinkles can be ironed out: one set of VAT, NI and Tax, pension, corporation taxes etc and in truth that's the only way it will ever work, but most European countries have thousands of years of history, separate cultures etc which sit very uneasily with subsuming all of that to a remote parliament, and for the wealthy countries, a drop in their living standards to subsidise the poorer countries.
There are still tensions within Germany since reunification in 1990, West Germany paid a great deal to make that happen and still hasn't really achieved a uniform economic system there. So the prospect of rolling those costs out across all of the EU is a step too far I would think.

As for refusals, last week's recovery package deal suggests the opposite. Why the negativity?
The refusal nearly happened

There.

Focusing on a negative that did not happen disregarding the positive that did happen = negativity.

Why? :D
And it took many more days than planned, no doubt a lot of backroom deals and strong arming, just like the deal done with Turkey over the migrant crisis (where three people met up and foisted the result as a fait accompli on the MEPs to vote it through).
If it took that much effort to get a pandemic relief plan then imagine achieving a truly federal system, hence my original 'negativity'.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:10 am

MOF wrote:
All the above is the fruit of your imagination. The EU is a quite precise (and painfully technical) set of agreements between nation states. Europe - on the other side - is both a geographical connotation and an idea. But it's not the EU.
Nothing to do with imagination, I never mentioned Europe and neither did you, we were talking about the EU which from day one of its Common Market origins envisaged a federal system and neglected to mention that to the British population in the 1970s.

You misunderstand. I mentioned "Europe" because the word is sometimes used with the connotations you mention - an aspiration to an unified nation of "europeans". If you had used the word "Europe" rather than EU, I would have agreed - European hope (to me) rests on the possibility of a future integrate large state capable to compete with similarly-sized states such as the USA, China, Russia.

But (unfortunately, I'd say, but that's not the subject in discussion) the EU is nothing like that - no more than the american colonies were the USA in the 18th century.

The 'quite precise (and painfully technical) set of agreements between nation states' you mention is the very reason why the EUphile leaders want a federal system so that all those wrinkles can be ironed out: one set of VAT, NI and Tax, pension, corporation taxes etc and in truth that's the only way it will ever work,

All of which does not exist in the EU.
Which is why I say the EU is not what you talking about. A descendant of the EU might, one day, be. But it is not now.

It's like talking a Model T and saying it's a Ferrari F488. Yes they're both cars and the second is in some way a descendant of the first, but they're most definitely not the same.

Again the EU which reached an agreement about recovery package is today's EU, not a different entity in the future.

Given that the EU is what it is, it's wasn't a certain result... and it's bloody encouraging.

Focusing on a negative that did not happen disregarding the positive that did happen = negativity.

Why? :D

And it took many more days than planned, no doubt a lot of backroom deals and strong arming, just like the deal done with Turkey over the migrant crisis (where three people met up and foisted the result as a fait accompli on the MEPs to vote it through).
If it took that much effort to get a pandemic relief plan then imagine achieving a truly federal system, hence my original 'negativity'.

It's no surprising or exceptional that it's not easy. What is exceptional and a bit surprising is the successful result.

Again, you chose to focus on the (obviously) difficult path instead of the successful result, which suggest a negative attitude. If they'd taken one day you could just as well say they should have taken 5 minutes.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby MOF » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:56 pm

The Lisbon Treaty was the moment at which a federal road map was firmed up. Previous treaties were setting in place said federal EU bloc (ever closer union).
Harmonisation of rules was in progress but true integration (financial) hasn’t taken place and in my humble opinion won’t.
Read this https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... e-53481542
If that isn’t an indicator of how unlikely a true federal project can happen I don’t know what is.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:35 pm

MOF wrote:The Lisbon Treaty was the moment at which a federal road map was firmed up. Previous treaties were setting in place said federal EU bloc.
Harmonisation of rules was in progress but true integration (financial) hasn’t taken place and in my humble opinion won’t.

The difficulty is that you don't seem to be able to distinguish between your interpretation and the facts.

Here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:306:FULL:EN:PDF

No trace of roadmap whatsoever. Hint: a "roadmap" is about the intention for a future state of things.

All the protocols are clearly about the current (then new) state of affairs. There is no provison for next steps. The word "next" appears three times, referring to a paragraph, the technical meeting for formally deciding membership and the commission.

Furhtermore, the text explicitly says that the various Presidents, Kings, Queens and whatever:

DESIRING to complete the process started by the Treaty of Amsterdam and by the Treaty of Nice with a view to enhancing the efficiency and democratic legitimacy of the Union and to improving the coherence of its action, HAVE RESOLVED to amend the Treaty on European Union, the Treaty establishing the European Community and the Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community

(emphasis mine).

The stated raison d'être of the Treaty is enhancing the efficiency and democratic legitimacy of the Union and improve the coherence of its actions. Like in "right now". It's there in black and white. The treaty itself enhances this and improves that (and it did).

Now if you want to construct that as a declaration of future intent (a "roadmap") by all means do; but it is an irrational position in clear contrast with the text and merits no further discussion on my side.

I get that you mean that the intention of some of the promoters of the Treaty might have been to have further steps (and it might well be, but then I don't read minds and neither, I suspect, do you) but even if it were, it'd be irrelevant: an agreement is not made by intentions, is made on the text of the agreement, which becomes law. Both in the EU and in any nation state which is not a banana republic.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby MOF » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:21 pm

This wikipedia article wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalisation_of_the_European_Union says “Since the 1950s, European integration has seen the development of a supranational system of governance, as its institutions move further from the concept of simple intergovernmentalism and more towards a federalised system. However, with the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, new intergovernmental elements have been introduced alongside the more federal systems, making it more difficult to define the European Union (the EU). The European Union, which operates through a hybrid system of intergovernmentalism and supranationalism, is not officially a federation or even a confederation – though various academic observers regard it as having the characteristics of a federal system”

The BBC’s Them or us at 8’20” shows that the roadmap has always been federalist https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg0LncoE060
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:12 pm

Well I guess that's what happens when you get our ideas from wikipedia or a tv show.. :D

Use at the source, Luke!
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby MOF » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:03 am

It’s not a show it’s one of a two part documentary.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby Theodorekidd » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:08 pm

The music industry is an intense and volatile market that wants what it wants, but there are always outlets to make money. You need to have your fingers in all the pies as a musician. Let's say we're in a post-covid world. You'd want to be earning income from multiple sources as a musician. This means streams, gigs, sales, studio sessions, busking and everything in between.
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