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How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby DC-Choppah » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:22 pm

Me too!

:)
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby merlyn » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:22 pm

Some commentators see parallels between the time we are living through and The Gilded Age. The frontier then was building railways across the US, the frontier now is the internet. The Gilded Age was full of corruption, monopolies and exploitation of workers. The difference now is the acquiescence of most of the population.

The parallel I see is with the Medieval Period. It's a question of faith. Faith in 'the market'.

Back then there were monks in robes, sitting in monasteries working on illuminated manuscripts hoping to gain grace with god. Now we have business men in suits, sitting in skyscrapers working on illuminated computer screens hoping to make a profit.

Profit -- god
Money -- grace
Business man -- monk
Illuminated manuscript -- computer screen
Monastery -- skyscraper
Doctrine -- economics
Priest -- economist
Heretics -- left wingers
Saints -- celebrities

Eventually the nonsense of the Medieval period was replaced with something more rational. The market (that I don't think Adam Smith would recognise as a free market) in its current corrupt and crony form is good at making the rich richer and the poor poorer. I think creating a healthier financial ecosystem involves more than tinkering with the legacy of the twentieth century and requires new twenty-first century solutions.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:55 am

I'm not sure I entirely agree with your parallel but I definitely agree with your conclusion.
Our whole set-up is twisted., but unfortunately those most capable of making changes are generally those most benefiting from the status quo.
It was ever thus.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am

merlyn wrote:The market (that I don't think Adam Smith would recognise as a free market) in its current corrupt and crony form

Hm.. examples? (related to music business)
Music is produced and published. People buy it - these days mostly via streaming - or get it for free on YouTube and others.

There are grey areas (the Tidal scandal some time ago for example) but the main challenge I see is that there is no market at all for recorded music, because - due to lack of enforcement of property and copy rights - nobody needs to buy it.

What we buy with streaming is convenience. Which has no great economic value - hence the low price.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby merlyn » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:10 pm

blinddrew wrote:I'm not sure I entirely agree with your parallel but I definitely agree with your conclusion.
Our whole set-up is twisted., but unfortunately those most capable of making changes are generally those most benefiting from the status quo.
It was ever thus.

This has the same outcome as saying "Nothing needs changed". If your answer to the question "How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?" is "We don't. We can't change anything," then you can say that.

CS70 wrote:Hm.. examples? (related to music business)

Youtube is a monopoly. Monopolies are illegal as was shown in the case of Standard Oil in The Gilded Age.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby MOF » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:24 pm

Youtube is a monopoly. Monopolies are illegal
It’s an oligopoly I would say, other video sharing sites are available.
https://creamyanimation.com/10-best-vid ... e-youtube/
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby merlyn » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:52 pm

Applying eighteenth century economics to the internet is like fixing a mixing desk with a hammer. :) Your mixing desk goes on the blink and a technician turns up carrying only a hammer -- things are not looking good. He proceeds to smash your mixing desk to pieces and then says "You'll need to buy a new one." Good for the market, not so good for you.

@MOF I see what you mean. I would suggest that the actual business end of Youtube is not the content side -- it's the advertising side and only Youtube can provide that number of users.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:55 pm

merlyn wrote:
CS70 wrote:Hm.. examples? (related to music business)

Youtube is a monopoly. Monopolies are illegal as was shown in the case of Standard Oil in The Gilded Age.

A difficult one. It depends on the point of view I guess.

If there were a business in giving away videos for free, it might be considered one - but with difficulty. The barrier of entry in giving away videos for free is low and they don't really acquire the free-video giving competition - and as noted there are other viable actors do it.

But since videos are given away for free, it isn't a business so there's no monopoly, illegal or not.

In its actual business - advertising - YouTube big, but one among many bigs - bit like BMW and Mercedes.. not dominant.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby merlyn » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:18 pm

A loss of value is considered a market failure in the usual economics.

Wikipedia wrote:In neoclassical economics, market failure is a situation in which the allocation of goods and services by a free market is not Pareto efficient, often leading to a net loss of economic value.

But the internet ticks on regardless. It seems neoclassical economics doesn't apply to the internet.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby RichardT » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:43 pm

What we buy with streaming is convenience. Which has no great economic value - hence the low price.

I think convenience is one aspect, but also we get access to a vast library of music so we can try music we would never get the chance to listen to. For the consumer, provided they explore new music, streaming is an incredible bargain.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby blinddrew » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:14 pm

merlyn wrote:
blinddrew wrote:I'm not sure I entirely agree with your parallel but I definitely agree with your conclusion.
Our whole set-up is twisted., but unfortunately those most capable of making changes are generally those most benefiting from the status quo.
It was ever thus.

This has the same outcome as saying "Nothing needs changed". If your answer to the question "How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?" is "We don't. We can't change anything," then you can say that.
Actually I think that probably is where my head is.
It's safe to say that looking at the world in general, not just the music industry, I'm feeling pretty disenfranchised and unempowered.
We've never had more access to knowledge but we've embraced ignorance. 2020 was supposed to be about moon bases and jet packs, instead we've got flat-earthers and basic hand hygiene.
:headbang:
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:20 am

RichardT wrote:
What we buy with streaming is convenience. Which has no great economic value - hence the low price.

I think convenience is one aspect, but also we get access to a vast library of music so we can try music we would never get the chance to listen to. For the consumer, provided they explore new music, streaming is an incredible bargain.

Well, I can see that in theory but in practice it's not that different. I remember going to the Virgin megastore back in the times and browsing CDs.. already there was way more music that I could have possibly explored in a lifetime - and I'm not talking about the cost of CDs. Heck, forget the megastore - just in a single music shop there was already more music I could possibly try!

The limit is the amount of time we have to dedicate to exploring music.

That amount has arguably shrunk, given that now music exploration competes will more forms of entertainment.

So yes, we can access lots of more music, but we had more than enough available to satisfy our needs before streaming (at least for the vast majority of people). That means that - once again - that access has very little economic value. It's a nice to have, no more.

That streaming is a bargain for the consumer, there is no question. Also a free food would be! For consumers, any free service or product is in general a good deal (but also makes you fat and prone to cardiac disease :) ).
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby Kwackman » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:38 am

blinddrew wrote:We've never had more access to knowledge but we've embraced ignorance.

Depressing, but nicely stated and unfortunately probably true.
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby CS70 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:11 am

blinddrew wrote:We've never had more access to knowledge but we've embraced ignorance. 2020 was supposed to be about moon bases and jet packs, instead we've got flat-earthers and basic hand hygiene.

On the bright side, another option is that now we simply see more of what's always been there.. there may well be less mor... ops, intellectually challenged people in the world than in times past, but back before the internet you simply couldn't see them.

One (imho good) side effect of the internet is that it breaks social circles. In traditional physical interactions everyone after a while tend to surround themselves with like-minded people and can go on happily ignoring the rest. On forums and social media, you can't.

It is surely painful and occasionally depressing, but it can be ultimately instructive, and perhaps beneficial..
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Re: How do we create a healthier music ecosystem that empowers musicians financially?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:32 am

One (imho good) side effect of the internet is that it breaks social circles. In traditional physical interactions everyone after a while tend to surround themselves with like-minded people and can go on happily ignoring the rest. On forums and social media, you can't.

Actually, I think the opposite is true. When you had just five tv channels you were forced to be exposed to other points of view. But with the internet, esp social media, you are served opinions and posts that entirely reinforce your own interests and opinions. This is how algorithms are set up, to give the people more of what they want and like. It narrows their viewpoint and opportunity to see the other person's point of view. If you're into mad conspiracy theories about Bill Gates, the internet will happily feed your addiction, to the exclusion of all reality.
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