desmond wrote:I'm pretty sure that all these companies have clauses in their agreements that they can change, withdraw, or terminate user accounts for more or less any reason they deem justifiable.
I group this in one.. And I agree, because I already had mentioned it.
Thing is, when you buy something, you buy that something, not something else - be it physical products or services.
I agree it'd be nice that there were companies which had the services you want with the conditions you want, but probably there aren't. Once again, the issue you mention is not about streaming vs. physical products, the issue is the products you'd like vs the products that someone is willing to sell.
But this thread is not about that. It's about the "fair pay" that is the subject of this thread. Not about the products that we'd like existed, but don't... and neither was DC's remark, on which I commented.
That is the context. "Ownership equates access" when it comes to musical content and the way musicians should (I believe) be payed - because, in that context, what matters is that you can access a song or not in a given moment and pay for that access.
That is why I remarked that it was pretty clear what DC was talking about.
There's gazillions other contexts in which owning a CD or download a copy of the digital data in a sandbox on your phone are different... for one, you obviously don't have a CD when you stream, as I said. But they are fairly irrelevant for this thread.
There is one aspect however which *is* relevant - and it is that you don't get the same product. At the moment, it's unfeasible to stream the original, CD quality data, so what you stream is technically lower quality (even if it may not necessarily be perceived as so).
That could justify, if you want, a different - lower - price for play than a CD purchase.
I understand this. Have you ever read reports of people using online accounts from various companies that have been shut off - sometimes for no understandable reason - and you can't speak to anyone about it? Google, Amazon, Apple, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, plenty more. Apple have terminated (paid) developer accounts for no reason, shutting off business owners from their markets and their revenue streams. YouTube arbitrarily take down or demonetise people's personal content because a Moog filter sweep they made on a video while performing happens to be automatically filed as a copyright complaint because some algorithm matched it to a similar sounding Moog filter sweep on a record.
These account suspensions, terminations, etc for these kinds of services *happen all the time* and the user, regardless of whatever contract terms they think they have, is almost always *powerless* to do much about it.
All true and agreeable, but again, when one enters an agreement with YouTube, he/she signs a contract - it's not yadayada. It's not "arbitrary" insofar one has accepted the possibility of that change in the contract.
There are a number of fundamental rights that cannot be waived away by a contract, of course, but YouTube publication rules aren't among them.
If you're on, say, a free Spotify tier, I'm pretty sure that Spotify can suspend your account if they want to, and you don't really have much rights or say in the matter. Or they can decide to remove the free service and require everyone to pay a subscription or go away. I'm not saying they will, but I'm saying they *can*.
Er.. yes - but so what? If you are on a free tier (even not considering that you are not paying anything, which changes the context quite a bit) you have still signed an agreement which includes that your account can be suspended etc etc... In particular, whether or not you are aware of it, you are formally agreeing that you will look at advertisements and not use the platform in a way to eliminate the advertisement part. Which is the usual cause for suspension. Spotify _wants_ you to be there (hopefully so that you convert.. or maybe not, not sure what their business model is this week), so they have zero interest in arbitrarily suspending you. If they do is because they constitute your actions as a breach of contract.
Which you could, in theory, litigate - because a contract its is.. so not powerless, no.
Again, as an analogy in physical terms, a DVD often contain advertising at start and sometime isn't skippable.. but that's what you can buy. You buy what you buy, not what you're thinking of buying.
I didn't say they were irrelevant, I said "forget them for now", meaning I didn't want to go into a long legal debate about definitions of terms (also: not a lawyer).
Yeah, I made that comment because it seems fairly common to me that most people are unwilling to go enough in the details. It's not about being a lawyer or not, but be willing to look at the complexity. The only things that practically matter in these kinds of "fairer environment" discussions are the "legal" ones. Don't need to be a lawyer but things aren't simple and common sense - as a musician - gets you shafted. That's the world we live in. And incidentally why lawyers make way more money than musicians :D
I don't think the specific contract is the point. The point I made was that in these cases, someone else is calling the shots, and I cannot depend that the media I'm enjoying now I will be able to continue to enjoy in the future, because someone else controls my access to it - unlike my own content. That's it.
Someone's calling the shots because you - as a buyer - have agreed to that.
You seem to construct that as a kind of oppression (apologies if I am mistaken) but it's not.
I'm not saying streaming services are bad, aren't useful, or whatever. I'm just calling out the poster above who basically equated access on a streaming service to ownership, and why this is not, as I see it, in real practical terms, the case.
As I wrote above, in the context in subject, it seems pretty plain that streaming and ownership are similar enough. It's simple looking at facts that apply in the context and reaching a logical conclusion - not necessarily my preference (I am not invested in neither streaming or CDs, nor have particular liking for any or care for them at all - I just like to make and listen to music).