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Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:35 pm
by blinddrew
Wonks wrote:It's their möre cöwbell offshoot.

I'm not sure why but this has really tickled me today.
:D

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:07 pm
by ConcertinaChap
Well it's quite a dötty discussion, after all.

CC

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:17 am
by zenguitar
Vęrÿ døttÿ įñdêēd. Åńd gõt thèré šô qūìkłÿ.

Andy :beamup:

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:41 am
by Wonks
Wëll, ït ïs äböüt Ämbïsönïcs.

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:47 am
by Hugh Robjohns
:clap: :lol:

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:20 pm
by ManFromGlass
gaahk!
I always turn on the sub-titles when watching Brit tv shows as my ear has problems with the more hard core accents and now I need sub-titles here! :D

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:16 pm
by ConcertinaChap
So, back to the plöt (oops, sorry about that, sort of slipped through).

MOF wrote:I just wondered if your recordings worked realistically converted to 'binaural', I think that given lots of people listen to music on earbuds it would be worth your while to convert your recordings to that format to give people the 'being there' experience.

Well I've been looking into binaural with Logic and this is what I seem to be finding. Logic has a "binaural panner" built in, but this is intended for positioning mono or stereo sources in a binaural field. It is not intended to handle ambisonic data. Please correct me if I'm wrong but so far as I can see if I want to do binaural with the NT-SF1 I have to put the Soundfield by Rode plugin in a channel effects slot and set it to decode the A format recording to B format. The next effects slot must be occupied by a third party binaural plugin which is what will do the actual work of converting the B format data to binaural for the final mix. Well and good, but binaural plugins cost money, the good ones quite a lot of money.

So if I'm wrong about this workflow please let me know. Alternatively if you know of a plugin that will do the job without raiding the nearly-empty piggy bank again I'd like to know that. Otherwise binaural will have to wait until I have an actual use for it and can justify the cost (you see I've just recently bought this microphone ...).

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:46 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
ConcertinaChap wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong but so far as I can see if I want to do binaural with the NT-SF1 I have to put the Soundfield by Rode plugin in a channel effects slot and set it to decode the A format recording to B format. The next effects slot must be occupied by a third party binaural plugin which is what will do the actual work of converting the B format data to binaural for the final mix.

Yes, the signal flow is A-format input to B-format processing to binaural output. As you say, there are a number of B-binaural conversion plugins, but I'm not aware of anything free at the moment. Harpex and Ambihead are the two I've heard about, but I've not had a chance to play with either I'm afraid.

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:14 pm
by ConcertinaChap
Thanks for that, Hugh. Ambihead costs €189 + VAT and Harpex €298 + VAT. That confirms what I thought, that I'll need a genuine reason to buy one of these. Never mind, maybe if ambisonics takes off a bit more Apple will add the functionality to Logic. We can always hope :)

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:25 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
Ha! ;-)

I'm pleased ambisonics is becoming popular again, and finding a role in multichannel sound creation or the games and cinema industries.

But for me, the only application that appeals to me as a practitioner is in using surround sources (ambisonic or whatever) to create a binaural output, since that's the only practical way I'm going to get to enjoy listening to it. Multiple speakers around the walls and ceilings just ain't gonna happen...

But even then binaural transcoding only works if you have a system that can accommodate a personally-derived HRTF. Without that you simply won't get stable and consistent sound positioning, and if you ain't got that, you ain't got a system worth listening to...

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:28 pm
by blinddrew
Is this where I mention there's a free plug-in for Reaper...
http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/download/reaper/

;)

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:10 pm
by ConcertinaChap
Be my guest, young man.

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:27 pm
by Hugh Robjohns
Looks interesting and promising... But the documentation is rather lacking so its actual capabilities remain rather unclear to me.

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:52 pm
by ConcertinaChap
Hugh Robjohns wrote:But even then binaural transcoding only works if you have a system that can accommodate a personally-derived HRTF.

So, a business opportunity for someone to produce HRTFs based on hat size. All I ask for this idea is an HRTF for hat size 59cm.

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:59 pm
by James Perrett
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Looks interesting and promising... But the documentation is rather lacking so its actual capabilities remain rather unclear to me.

It is a JS effect so the source code can be examined by clicking a button on the plug-in. Hopefully it will be well commented ;)

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:01 pm
by Wonks
Does it have umlauts?

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:54 pm
by James Perrett
James Perrett wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Looks interesting and promising... But the documentation is rather lacking so its actual capabilities remain rather unclear to me.

It is a JS effect so the source code can be examined by clicking a button on the plug-in. Hopefully it will be well commented ;)

More documentation on the decoding can be found at

http://depts.washington.edu/dxscdoc/Hel ... ecode.html

and a general guide is at

http://depts.washington.edu/dxscdoc/Hel ... e-ATK.html

I guess the biggest issue is how much of this has been ported from SuperCollider to Reaper.

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:14 pm
by ManFromGlass
I was going to mention Ambisonics Toolkit. That’s what I was playing with.

This guy - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_da97ALqAY4
I believe is the inventor of the software and his YouTubes are very useful In showing how it all works. This is not his best video of all his videos but it helped me get up and running.

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:29 pm
by James Perrett
I've just been down to the Southampton University Science and Engineering festival and heard a demo of their 40 channel surround sound speaker array. I was interested to see that they were using Reaper for the demo with what looked like an RME Madiface USB interface on a Mac laptop. Apparently much of the audio had been captured using a 32 channel ambisonic microphone array and all the channels for each segment were contained in a single Reaper item. I didn't get much chance to really see behind the scenes though.

Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:06 pm
by ConcertinaChap
Did an ambisonic recording yesterday of some of the musicians I'll be seriously recording next weekend. I'm not going to play any of it here because it was very revealing of the acoustic problems in the space I was supposed to do the recording in. This is unexpected and very valuable. I'm going to try and get them to play here instead. Although my studio space is too small for 8 musicians my living room isn't and doesn't have most of the problems yesterday's room had.

CC

PS that may give a neat use for a Zoom H3-VR. You could use it to do a test recording in the space intended before deploying the full rig. I shall have to think about that.

PPS James, that adds to the suggestion I made earlier that Reaper is carving itself a very neat market niche as the DAW of choice for surround work.