Please help me - this small problem is driving me nuts ...

New studio setup... 2018 Mac mini, Logic Pro X, Roland FP30, Behringer X touch mini for expression control.

When playing an AU instrument, notes sound correctly and the x touch affects various midi controllers such as expression and velocity in the plugin. I can hear notes and expressions played back fine.

Hit record... and only the notes seem to be recorded, not the additional changes in cc data, despite the fact I hear them as they are played.

I can confirm they're not recorded as they don't appear as edited cc data in the piano roll....

Surely there's no need to change the automation mode to Touch / Latch / Write when inputting new regions??? I understand this would be needed if later adding additional changes to an existing region.

This has got to be something simple but I'm not finding any answers.

Thanks

Control surfaces change mixer and plugin parameters by automation, not by recording MIDI. Use the automation system to record your parameter changes.

Thanks Desmond.

Still not ideal. Yes I can write automation data by putting the track into Touch mode, for example. But I never recall having to do this previously. Or was that because the mod wheel was built into to the midi keyboard?

This isn’t really what I’m after. I want:

Select a midi track > hit record > play keys whilst turning knobs > resulting in recorded notes and expression data

I know it’s only a couple of clicks to switch automation modes from read to another and back again but it’s slightly irritating and disruptive to workflow.

Humf wrote:Still not ideal. Yes I can write automation data by putting the track into Touch mode, for example. But I never recall having to do this previously.

This depends on what controllers you are using.

Humf wrote:Or was that because the mod wheel was built into to the midi keyboard?

Yes - that is probably what we call a "dumb MIDI controller" - that just sends MIDI CC etc into Logic, to be recorded in regions the usual way.

Humf wrote:Select a midi track > hit record > play keys whilst turning knobs > resulting in recorded notes and expression data

The thing here is that you are using a *control surface* to change parameters, not a dumb MIDI controller. If you weren't using a control surface, you could, for example, in your plugin, MIDI learn an incoming CC to a parameter. You'd be sending that MIDI into Logic, recording it into regions, and that MIDI in the region would be interpreted by the plugin on playback.

Control surfaces work entirely differently. MIDI data arriving on a MIDI port that Logic knows is a control surface *never reaches the sequencer* by design - because you don't want the knobs and buttons on a control surface to be recorded into regions. So, when you move a control on a control surface, that message bypasses the sequencer and controls the plugin parameter directly, completely outside the sequencer - just the same way as if you were changing that parameter with your mouse. And as the parameter changes, it generates automation events, just like the mixer settings and so on.

So, if you want to record MIDI into a region, you'll need to do it away from the control surface functionality, and you'll need to use MIDI mapping *inside the plugin* to map parameters to MIDI (as Logic's controller assignments all use the control surface approach - learned MIDI messages - from any port - never reach the sequencer, they control plugin parameters directly.)

So, if the plugin you are using supports MIDI learning incoming CC to parameters, or responds to incoming CC (say, Kontakt or Omnisphere, whatever) you can do it that way. Just remember that your control surface is controlling Logic directly, and is not designed to generate regular MIDI data you record into regions.

Depending on what it is, it might have a mode where it can operate as a dumb controller, and just send regular MIDI which you can record as any other MIDI data.

You are non-specific as to the plugins you are using, but many of them respond both to incoming MIDI to change parameters, and also automation for plugin parameters - you can do both. The Spitfire Kontakt instruments do this, for example. You should probably dedicate a regular MIDI controller to do this if you're doing it a lot and you don't wish to use the automation workflow - as I say, a lot of this depends on the capabilities of your controller.

Thanks.

I’m happy to work with either the automation workflow or MIDI cc data display shown in the Piano Roll editor window. Either will do!

Apologies if I’m missing a trick here... I think I’m more or less understanding your point. But still can’t understand why Logic is failing to capture the changes made during record, unless I firstly switch the automation mode to Touch or Latch etc.

If I take the Behringer out of Mackie Control mode then the device uses 2 presets to send MIDI cc data. The midi map sent by Behringer tells me that the main fader sends cc9 and for example, I have successfully managed to assign this to the dynamics fader in Spitfires dedicated plugin using the Learn function. After doing this, when I move the physical fader on the Behringer, it will correctly move the Dynamics control within the plugin. So far so good. Hit record on a blank track with no existing regions, and although changes in Dynamic are audible, none of them are captured. Neither by automation nor midi cc shown in the piano roll editor.

Is this to be expected?

Something I have noticed is that in the midi events list, during recording, physical fader movements appear on the list (alongside the note events) but disappear as I play. A red horizontal line appears above and below the events and they disappear almost instantly. Is this to be expected.

Sorry if I’ve missed the point. I must admit I’m not yet fully clear in my head of the midi signal pathway you describe. I will re-read your post.

I have noticed on the Spitfire website, they provide a support page on how to setup the Korg Nanocontrol2. The process involves using the korg app and appears to re-program the midi cc which is sent by individual faders/knobs. Behringer’s app does not support OSX so I do not have this facility for the X touch mini. I could try plugging it into a PC temporarily and altering the fader to cc1 which is the cc which Spitfire assigns to Dynamics?

Humf wrote:But still can’t understand why Logic is failing to capture the changes made during record, unless I firstly switch the automation mode to Touch or Latch etc.

Because those incoming MIDI messages get stolen and diverted around the sequencer part of Logic, to control the mixer/plugin parameters directly.

Humf wrote:If I take the Behringer out of Mackie Control mode then the device uses 2 presets to send MIDI cc data. The midi map sent by Behringer tells me that the main fader sends cc9 and for example, I have successfully managed to assign this to the dynamics fader in Spitfires dedicated plugin using the Learn function. After doing this, when I move the physical fader on the Behringer, it will correctly move the Dynamics control within the plugin. So far so good. Hit record on a blank track with no existing regions, and although changes in Dynamic are audible, none of them are captured. Neither by automation nor midi cc shown in the piano roll editor. Is this to be expected?

When you say using the "Learn" function - you mean Logic's controller assignments learn? Then yes, it's expected behaviour, as you're again saying to Logic "if CC9 comes in on this MIDI port, don't send it to the sequencer, make it instead control this plugin parameter". This is what controller assignments do, and is how control surfaces are architected in Logic.

If, as I mentioned in my above post, you use the *plugins'* MIDI learn feature (if it has one), then the CC9 MIDI data will follow the path you expect, and can be recorded in the sequencer, because Logic hasn't been instructed to steal those CC9 messages and do something with them.

Humf wrote:Something I have noticed is that in the midi events list, during recording, physical fader movements appear on the list (alongside the note events) but disappear as I play. A red horizontal line appears above and below the events and they disappear almost instantly. Is this to be expected.

Not sure what you mean, I'll have a look later...

Humf wrote:Sorry if I’ve missed the point. I must admit I’m not yet fully clear in my head of the midi signal pathway you describe. I will re-read your post.

If you're still not quite getting your head around it, I'll do a diagram which will help visualize it...

Humf wrote:I have noticed on the Spitfire website, they provide a support page on how to setup the Korg Nanocontrol2. The process involves using the korg app and appears to re-program the midi cc which is sent by individual faders/knobs. Behringer’s app does not support OSX so I do not have this facility for the X touch mini. I could try plugging it into a PC temporarily and altering the fader to cc1 which is the cc which Spitfire assigns to Dynamics?

So, in this case (I had a feeling you were referring to the Spitfire stuff) - you don't need to do *any learning at all* in Logic, or the plugin or anything.

Just make your controller send CC1 (and the other few CCs used for expression etc). It will work as you expect, and will be recorded into regions in Logic's sequencer as you expect. This is probably the most direct method, easiest to understand, and probably the one I would recommend.

Sorry - replied twice to you last night and both posts have disappeared. Very strange forum weirdness.

Anyway.... I've fixed it. Found somebody with a similar issue on logicprohelp forum and the solution he posted worked. I'd copied the detail into my previous posts (that have now disappeared) but if they don't appear then I'll repost later.

Update: Just in case of future readers finding this thread and seeking solutions, I never did get to the bottom of how to fix the x touch problem. I instead swapped for a korg nanokontrol 2 which has editing software, Korg kontrol Centre, which allowed me to write new CC assignments to faders on the nano which plugins, such as the Spitfires dedicated bbcso plugin, could use to control expression (cc11), dynamics (cc1) and vibrato (cc19). Logic records these fader movements into the piano roll automation section without any fuss.

It’s a shame about the x touch but I eventually realised one fader isn’t sufficient for this work as you can play the midi keyboard, control a fader and turn a knob at the same time. So despite my trouble assigning cc without behringer’s software supporting OS X, it wasn’t going to work anyhow.


https://spitfireaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en ... Libraries-


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Humf wrote:Anyway.... I've fixed it.

Humf wrote:I never did get to the bottom of how to fix the x touch problem.

Meaning - you couldn't work out how to manually change the MIDI the various knobs send when it's not in MCU mode?

Strange that it even has a generic controller mode if you can't change the messages it sends...?

Code: Select all

You get right to being creative quickly, because the MINI comes with pre-configured control elements for instant operation out of the box. However, you are also free to customize the experience with our free, downloadable and user-friendly editor app.

This doesn't work? Is is it that there's no Mac version? Perhaps someone else can create you a template to your spec which you can then just use?

Yes exactly that. No Mac version, only PC. So I did finds others online saying the same about it being a major drawback.

I have to admit defeat here. As a youngster, I had the brain power and time to troubleshoot. Now every minute i get to work, needs to be on the notes. This is partly why I now frequent this forum and not the PC one.

A mate who owns the korg stuff and runs his studio on a Mac said the Korg Kontrol software allowed him to do what he needed assignments wise. So for simplicity I did a swap. Much preferred the fader feel and throw on the behringer though...


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Humf wrote:So for simplicity I did a swap. Much preferred the fader feel and throw on the behringer though...

The editor is free to download, you could have just posted here how you needed to set it up, I could have run the Editor under my Win VM, allocated the CC's you want, and sent you the template file, and you could then have used your preferred controller in the manner you prefer.

Seems much simpler to me than swapping controllers, but anyway, you've not got a solution that works for you, and a bit more understanding on using controllers in Logic... so you can get back to the notes. :thumbup:

Yes, cheers, I did think about going onto a PC to make the changes and then taking back onto Mac but one slider just wasn’t going to work for me....

Cheers though


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