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196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Mon May 10, 2010 11:22 am

Exactly Aled.

Wombat has been quite confused since the start of this thread. I think his working methods are so far away from mine he cannot grasp what I am aiming to do at all.

As you have rightfully stated Aled my mixes will sound no better on any other system except for the fact they will have been mixed better thanks to the clarity in the first place.


On a separate note as much as this thread got a little hairy in some places Id like to thank everyone for there participation. It has been very informative and enjoyable.
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby johnny h » Mon May 10, 2010 12:10 pm

kolakube wrote:Exactly Aled.

Wombat has been quite confused since the start of this thread. I think his working methods are so far away from mine he cannot grasp what I am aiming to do at all.

As you have rightfully stated Aled my mixes will sound no better on any other system except for the fact they will have been mixed better thanks to the clarity in the first place.


On a separate note as much as this thread got a little hairy in some places Id like to thank everyone for there participation. It has been very informative and enjoyable.

There is a huge elephant in the room (or this thread!) and it just has to be said.

Why didn't you just buy a firewire soundcard which had proper PC drivers in the first place?
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby ken long » Mon May 10, 2010 12:11 pm

The Mini DAC does have proper drivers for PC. They're just not available through Apogee anymore.

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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Mon May 10, 2010 12:14 pm

There is a huge elephant in the room (or this thread!) and it just has to be said.

Why didn't you just buy a firewire soundcard which had proper PC drivers in the first place?


Also if you read through this thread you'll realise the Apogee DAC doesn't even require a soundcard.

ASIO4ALL was a waste of time for me. I now have the soundchip and ASIO4ALL installed from my PC.

There is a driver for XP. Not sure if it will work on windows 7 though. Anyone tried this?
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby johnny h » Mon May 10, 2010 12:50 pm

kolakube wrote:
There is a huge elephant in the room (or this thread!) and it just has to be said.

Why didn't you just buy a firewire soundcard which had proper PC drivers in the first place?


Also if you read through this thread you'll realise the Apogee DAC doesn't even require a soundcard.

ASIO4ALL was a waste of time for me. I now have the soundchip and ASIO4ALL installed from my PC.

There is a driver for XP. Not sure if it will work on windows 7 though. Anyone tried this?

From the website:
"Apogee has discontinued FireWire and USB development for the Windows OS. "

So not a great choice for the PC. Perhaps take it back and get something more suitable, rather than pissing about with this crappy ASIO4ALL nonsense.
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby XdigiX » Mon May 10, 2010 3:24 pm


Hi Guys,
I believe it was questioned here as to why audio equipment manufacturers make 192kHz where it can be hard to notice any difference over 96kHz or 48kHz? One interesting point is really how they can specify the device and market it.
A brief look at the apogee page reveals a rather impressive 119dB of dynamic range "weighted". This can be looked at as a 20 bit DAC (using an effective-number-of-bits ENOB calculation) again a nice number, but I guess you can already see you are missing 4 bits of the 24bit of the maximum word length!
No another piece of clever specification (and I've NO idea exactly how apogee themselves interpret the spec's I'm just speakin hypothetically!) is if you specify the DAC with a widened measurement bandwidth i.e. from 24kHz up to 192kHz, then you potentially stand to gain ~19dB to your spec. So lets say then that your dynamic range is now 119dB - 19dB = 100dB.
Now did I readed that the dynamic range was "weighted"? Oh well I guess this may be adding a dB or 2 to the measurement. :)
So... If we are now finding out our ENOB number again, well now our 20 bit could in reality be more like a 16 bit. But a least I get 8 "extra" bits in my word length of 24 bits :D

Now this I guess is a pessimistic view and I'm not sure how well it fits with the topic but I hope it may shed some light on why anyone may want to push the "boundarys" of this equipment so high.
And if you are spending a lot on the equipment find out exactly what the number mean in each case(from the manufacturer not just in general)

I'm just kinda learning this stuff as I go along, so please help or explain if I've got anything wrong here, rather than jump down my throat 8-)

ds1

ref:
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6643378.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENOB
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby johnny h » Mon May 10, 2010 3:42 pm

XdigiX wrote:
Hi Guys,
I believe it was questioned here as to why audio equipment manufacturers make 192kHz where it can be hard to notice any difference over 96kHz or 48kHz? One interesting point is really how they can specify the device and market it.
A brief look at the apogee page reveals a rather impressive 119dB of dynamic range "weighted". This can be looked at as a 20 bit DAC (using an effective-number-of-bits ENOB calculation) again a nice number, but I guess you can already see you are missing 4 bits of the 24bit of the maximum word length!
No another piece of clever specification (and I've NO idea exactly how apogee themselves interpret the spec's I'm just speakin hypothetically!) is if you specify the DAC with a widened measurement bandwidth i.e. from 24kHz up to 192kHz, then you potentially stand to gain ~19dB to your spec. So lets say then that your dynamic range is now 119dB - 19dB = 100dB.
Now did I readed that the dynamic range was "weighted"? Oh well I guess this may be adding a dB or 2 to the measurement. :)
So... If we are now finding out our ENOB number again, well now our 20 bit could in reality be more like a 16 bit. But a least I get 8 "extra" bits in my word length of 24 bits :D

Now this I guess is a pessimistic view and I'm not sure how well it fits with the topic but I hope it may shed some light on why anyone may want to push the "boundarys" of this equipment so high.
And if you are spending a lot on the equipment find out exactly what the number mean in each case(from the manufacturer not just in general)

I'm just kinda learning this stuff as I go along, so please help or explain if I've got anything wrong here, rather than jump down my throat 8-)

ds1

ref:
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6643378.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENOB

There's no point worrying about this level of dynamic range. An extremely quiet room is about 20db, whereas permanent and instant hearing damage can occur at 120db. So unless you have incredibly loud speakers, a silent room and an insane desire to permanently damage your hearing, 100db dynamic range is more than you need!
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby XdigiX » Mon May 10, 2010 4:33 pm

120dB here refers to dynamic range. I think you are confusing it with sound pressure measurements. They both use dB's but that's just cause they are large ratios.
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon May 10, 2010 4:58 pm

Which is why the CD format is still perfectly valid for high quality music reproduction. It has a practical noise floor around 93dB below the peak level and the ability to reproduce signals a further 20dB or so below that if the source recordings are properly dithered.

However, for original source recording purposes, where signal levels can be unpredictable, it is wise to add a further 20dB or so of contingency headroom, extending the dynamic range requirement of an A-D (and monitoring D-A) to about 120dB or so. This is acheivable with decent converters, and even budget converters wil only fall a few decibels short of this.

The point about extended bandwidth sampling allowing some dynamic range figure fiddling is a valid one -- as is the use of weighted figures... but I think the real reason for manufacturers offering elevated rates like 192 and 384kHz is because they can and people are generally impressed with bigger numbers.

In reality, the performance at these higher rates is almost always inferior (from a jitter point of view if nothing else) to single and dual rates.

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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Mon May 10, 2010 5:55 pm

So not a great choice for the PC. Perhaps take it back and get something more suitable, rather than pissing about with this crappy ASIO4ALL nonsense.


^^^^ @ Johny H,

As said mate you don't need a sound card. So im not "pissing" around with all this crappy ASIO4ALL as you put it.

I have both mac and PC so still a great choice for me.

Why do you hate Apogee so much?
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Mon May 10, 2010 7:48 pm

We're past the stage when DAC technology was new, affordable stuff cut too many corners, and paying big money got you something really better. Well past it. Now, the DAC on a domestic computer's motherboard is really pretty good for simple playback. There's no reason, except marketing, why it couldn't be even better and come with a proper ASIO driver as standard, but the bean-counters prefer to save a few pennies and have you buy a separate card. Competence kicks in at quite a moderate price point. There's still a demand for something "better" - i.e. more expensive. Manufacturers are happy to supply it. It's interesting that Apogee are reported as concentrating on Mac users. Read into that what you like!
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby johnny h » Mon May 10, 2010 7:55 pm

kolakube wrote:
So not a great choice for the PC. Perhaps take it back and get something more suitable, rather than pissing about with this crappy ASIO4ALL nonsense.


^^^^ @ Johny H,

As said mate you don't need a sound card. So im not "pissing" around with all this crappy ASIO4ALL as you put it.

I have both mac and PC so still a great choice for me.

Why do you hate Apogee so much?

Because they have stupidly withdrawn PC support, which makes their soundcards a very bad choice for anyone who doesn't wish to be needlessly and permamently tied to Apple.
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby James Perrett » Mon May 10, 2010 9:23 pm

johnny h wrote:
There is a huge elephant in the room (or this thread!) and it just has to be said.

Why didn't you just buy a firewire soundcard which had proper PC drivers in the first place?

I'm afraid you aren't reading properly - the Apogee is just a simple DAC here - not an audio interface. Many modern PC's have SPDIF built in and it is the built in SPDIF that he is trying to use here. The Apogee is irrelevant - it could just as easily be a Lavry, Benchmark, Mytek, Sonifex or other brand of decent DAC.

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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby ken long » Mon May 10, 2010 9:42 pm

James Perrett wrote: Many modern PC's have SPDIF built in and it is the built in SPDIF that he is trying to use here.

Good call. Hadn't even thought of using the SPDIF.
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Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby johnny h » Mon May 10, 2010 10:20 pm

James Perrett wrote:
johnny h wrote:
There is a huge elephant in the room (or this thread!) and it just has to be said.

Why didn't you just buy a firewire soundcard which had proper PC drivers in the first place?

I'm afraid you aren't reading properly - the Apogee is just a simple DAC here - not an audio interface. Many modern PC's have SPDIF built in and it is the built in SPDIF that he is trying to use here. The Apogee is irrelevant - it could just as easily be a Lavry, Benchmark, Mytek, Sonifex or other brand of decent DAC.

James.

No, I read it. Still seems crazy to use the in-built soundcard spdif because you have an incompatible external firewire soundcard.

Surely its a much more better and flexible idea to use a firewire soundcard which is fully supported on the PC and Mac!
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