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Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

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Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:05 pm

So I switch the trusty old Music PC on this morning, and was advised by AMD to update the display driver, even though I only updated it a few weeks ago, and that update didn't seem to do anything, not that I noticed anyway.

But being a dutiful user, I installed the latest driver and what improvement is there? well, I got the Win10 blue screen of death uh oh.

So I reboot and all I get is a blank grey screen, the mouse works, but that's all that works, if I right click on the desktop to I get the menu and select display properties, nothing happens.

I am getting to the point where I think I shall just get the machine working, lock the machine down and take it off the internet.

Oh how I wish someone like Akai would make one of their MPC machines that would run VSTs, PCs just seem so pernickety. When I first installed and got Win10 bedded in, it was fine, but as I do more updates, it gets more 'fragile'

Luckily I made an image just yesterday so hopefully that will get me back on the right track
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby ef37a » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:15 pm

Just in case I HAVE to get W10, would Restore fix the problem?

I ask because I never seem to have much luck with images.

BTW my BT Yahoo mail has been down this last hour or so and I did not expect to be logged in?

Obviously I know even Jack less about 'putters than I knew I didn't!

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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby resistorman » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:39 pm

Try a system restore point first?
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Agharta » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:17 pm

I wouldn't generally feel the need to update a graphics driver on a system that isn't used for graphically intensive workloads unless it had a security feature included.
The majority of the updates address gaming which is why they are released monthly as its a fast moving area of computing.
A compromise would be to update once or twice a year.
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby OneWorld » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:36 pm

I couldn't use System Restore, as I just had a blank screen, the image I made has fixed it though - phew!

Thanks for the suggestions
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby CS70 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:53 pm

Of course it might be a manufacturer issue, or a rare hardware compatibility issue, but most likely your system is in a somewhat corrupted state. Very often people notices only because things like these happen - when replacing low level drivers the system relies on information that’s otherwise seldom used. As of why it may happen, the usual suspects are unexpected shutdowns, badly written applications, buggy drivers and of course disk or ram issues at some point in the machine’s life fe.
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby The Elf » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:47 pm

OneWorld wrote:I couldn't use System Restore, as I just had a blank screen, the image I made has fixed it though - phew!
I have NEVER had System Restore fix a single problem for me. Never. Not once. Zilch. It either doesn't have what is needed to solve an issue, or it simply fails/falls over/blue-screens. It is utterly useless.

Without image backups we are all skating on the melting ice of doom!
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Agharta » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:38 pm

Glad to hear it has been sorted.

In the old days you'd just boot into Safe Mode and uninstall the errant driver so does Win10 not have something similar?
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby ef37a » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:36 pm

The Elf wrote:
OneWorld wrote:I couldn't use System Restore, as I just had a blank screen, the image I made has fixed it though - phew!
I have NEVER had System Restore fix a single problem for me. Never. Not once. Zilch. It either doesn't have what is needed to solve an issue, or it simply fails/falls over/blue-screens. It is utterly useless.

Without image backups we are all skating on the melting ice of doom!

My experience is quite the opposite. I have used Restore many times and it removed the problem I was having. For instance, we rarely need to do 'optimizations' now that we are all running super fast computers but I often tell newbs that have glitch audio problems to run the usual ones. Kill OBS and bleeps, shut down wireless etc but I tell them to set a restore point first.

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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Mike Stranks » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:36 am

CS70 wrote:Of course it might be a manufacturer issue, or a rare hardware compatibility issue, but most likely your system is in a somewhat corrupted state. Very often people notices only because things like these happen - when replacing low level drivers the system relies on information that’s otherwise seldom used. As of why it may happen, the usual suspects are unexpected shutdowns, badly written applications, buggy drivers and of course disk or ram issues at some point in the machine’s life fe.

:thumbup:

Which is why it's a good idea to run a proprietary housekeeping product (such as CCleaner) on a regular basis....
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby OneWorld » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:58 am

If I got one of the Akai MPC series, say the 4000, and bought a Muse Receptor to use in conjunction with it, to run VSTs, could I ditch a computer?
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Watchmaker » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:06 pm

Software developers are largely optimizing for their convenience, not yours, frequently adjusting platform compatibility to hoped for future states, not known soon to be obsolete ones. Backward compatibility has always been an issue. Also, there is an staggering amount of variation in PC land that renders it impossible to map outcomes in every possible scenario, so it's really a bit of a crap shoot. Drivers tend to be less affected by this but are by no means immune.

Many pressures to "innovate" or "upgrade" have no true relationship to user experience, they are, all too often, motivated by money making desires from imaginary shareholders who are essentially proxy strawmen for rapacious CEOs and their cadre of money chasing lackeys commonly called "leadership."

One thing to know about Win10, it's "software as a service" meaning, they control what's installed, not you. You buy conditionally on the proviso that they control program contents ALWAYS. If you're on Win10 and want a stable system, build up until you get there then definitely disconnect. Otherwise, your system will get "updated" whether you like it or no, to hell with what consequences may unfold in your special topography.

As others have noted: 1) keep an archive as opposed to a backup. Windows backup, in my experience, has never once actually been able to restore jack diddly. 2) keep production environments off the web if at all possible, 3) for PCs, regularly purge cache and temporary locations. I too use ccleaner from piriform. Lastly, keep in mind that "updates" has a different meaning in release jargon than it does in normal everyday use.
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby blinddrew » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:40 pm

Revengineer wrote:Many pressures to "innovate" or "upgrade" have no true relationship to user experience, they are, all too often, motivated by money making desires from imaginary shareholders who are essentially proxy strawmen for rapacious CEOs and their cadre of money chasing lackeys commonly called "leadership."
Beautifully put, do you mind if I quote you in future?
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby job » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:14 pm

Revengineer wrote:Many pressures to "innovate" or "upgrade" have no true relationship to user experience, they are, all too often, motivated by money making desires from imaginary shareholders who are essentially proxy strawmen for rapacious CEOs and their cadre of money chasing lackeys commonly called "leadership."

This connotative language makes you sound communistic. What you describe is actually a good thing in large part since it's these CEO's which gives us all this cool shit we play with. I think it's great and i'm very much a fan of technology.

For what it's worth, CEO's are interested mostly in realising their ideas, not stepping on people, it's just that they will step on people to realise them. Those people though are mostly other businesses, not the public because the public isn't in their way. In fact the public are needed, it's how they make their money afterall.

Would you consider your experience to be just as pleasant if you rolled back to, say, Win 98, with the hardware that was prevalent at that time?
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby CS70 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:08 pm

Revengineer wrote:Many pressures to "innovate" or "upgrade" have no true relationship to user experience, they are, all too often, motivated by money making desires from imaginary shareholders who are essentially proxy strawmen for rapacious CEOs and their cadre of money chasing lackeys commonly called "leadership."

It seems to be the fashion of the time to take quick judgements on anything, and if it involves some supposedly rapacious business type it tends to generate lots of agreement.But with all due respect.. this is bollocks.

The innovation in computers has been breathtaking since the 80s, and in simple, very understandable terms of "I want to do something, I couldn't yesterday, I can today."

And not in computers only: the fact that I can shoot a HD or 4K video with my cameras, creating a final product virtually indistinguishable from most commercial productions, and of infinite better quality of what was pro just a few years ago (and for just about the money that only the same few years ago would have bought me only a storage memory cartridge).. it's one of the many testaments of the incredible range of technology innovation we are witnessing. And, of course, I can edit and process the footage on my computers - something that just a few years back would have been unthinkable. That I can do so is due to improvements in hardware, software, and general capabilities of the machines we use. Just one of a myriad possible examples.

I don't know of any computer manufacturer whose software and hardware improvements haven't brought actual, solid improvements somewhere pretty useful. Even the most annoying and botched ones (say, the saga of thunderbolt contacts) have generally ultimately a (good) raison d'eitre and, once you navigate the change, can bring solid improvements (that is, allowing you to do stuff that you couldn't do before). There may of course be a few exception, but the vast majority is demonstrably in that direction. And in music of course we have one of the major examples.

That said, of course not everybody wants to be able to do today things that they couldn't do yesterday (even if, I suspect, mostly because they haven't tried yet..). There are people who still wants to use paper and pencil, and for them all the tech innovation is just annoying hassle. And of course you always have a bunch of change-averse people who refuse anything that's different (until they adopt something, which becomes the new status quo.. Windows XP wasn't the first Windows, if I recall ;-)).

It's a fact of life, and not a problem at all: it's simply less competition for the others who want to make stuff. But the people creating these innovations, by and large, are people who genuinely try to improve things for whoever accepts (or even hopes for) improvements, and that includes the CEOs and business people who enable them. And yes, they often make more money, and more money for people who don't innovate... and for very good reasons. Standing still is most often not a recipe for success of any type, including economic. These people have to deal with the vagaries of markets and supply and demand, and generally have others in the back who's invested money and really want a return (and I suspect that many complaining people would demand the same in the same way, had they money to invest), and of course they make mistakes. And their environments suffers, as any human environment, from the same "group first" thinking, patting each other' backs and helping a friend before helping a strange.. something that seems to be going with the times. But tech the competition is so much fiercer than other places that, if anything, these behaviors are much more limited than elsewhere.
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Watchmaker » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:26 pm

Interesting. I propose a distinction:

As far as the benefits of new technologies go, and the follow on improvements, that's all well and good. No real complaints here other than the colossal carnage left behind. Visit Vietnam sometime, or rural China if that's hard to visualize.

As far as maintenance and operations, ongoing investment, support for next gen-1 devices, then I wish you all the luck in trying to keep yesterday's shiny shiny bestest toy ever operational through tea time.

Too, let's take Burl as an example of truly world class innovation. Can the same ethic be applied to Intel, Microsoft. What about Gibson in the 1970's?

Innovation is great, but comes with heavy costs. Ideation of innovation for innovation's sake exacerbates that while depleting resources in an unending chase for more better. So yea, great for the few true geniuses among us and three cheers. For the buggers who steal design, use phrases like "minimum viable product" in their design philosophy and focus on cost reduction as the primary driver of ROI, all I can say is...it makes for a difficult rationale for capitalism :-)
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Dynamic Mike » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:03 am

Revengineer wrote:Many pressures to "innovate" or "upgrade" have no true relationship to user experience, they are, all too often, motivated by money making desires from imaginary shareholders who are essentially proxy strawmen for rapacious CEOs and their cadre of money chasing lackeys commonly called "leadership."

That's true to an extent. There is no management model based on the principle of 'leave well alone' because that wouldn't require management.

However, as purchasers we're guilty of encouraging corporations to release untested products because we have a tendancy to jump ship when manufacturers appear to fall behind in the tech specs despite having perfectly servicable products. Anyone remember Blackberry?

We also support false deadlines (like the Xmas rush) and then wonder why we get buggy half-finished products that require constant revisions. Perhaps we get the crap we deserve?
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Re: Why do updates seem to cause more problems than they fix

Postby Watchmaker » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:12 am

indeed. A little planning goes a long way and a decent plan takes experience and restraint to pull off. Few companies are known for their restraint and it may be legit to worry about becoming irrelevant in a quickly evolving space, but certain things never go out of style. Like great customer service, and quality product. Like they say in the trades "if you got time to do it twice, ya got time to do it right the first time."

On a semi related point - complexity does factor into the probability of conflicts as platform proliferation crowds out stability. Soon we should hit the boundary of "good enough" for all practical resolution and bandwidth requirements. Hopefully we can slow down a bit and get some inter-operability standards in place.

I dread one more frakking b**$!$ing change to the connector form factor. I have a drawer full of obsolete adapters. Ironically, rj45's are back for the win with AVB/Dante and who can complain that thunderbolt 3 isn't plenty? Until the next driver update...
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