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De fragging

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:01 am

Messing about with W10 and an oldish HP tower and some drives and I found the W10 de fragger does not seem to work?

Downloaded 'defraggler' (avoiding all the tat!) and have been running it for some hours on 2 drives.
However, do I need to defrag these days? I know not to for SSDs but these are 300 and 500G spinners. I am only doing all this to get a bit of speed with Win 10. Still don't like it but then I have not been really happy since I had to give up XP!

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Re: De fragging

Postby Pete Kaine » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:05 pm

The Windows 10 one works, it just seems to take a few days to do anything. As such, Defraggler is still my choice personally for spinners.
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Re: De fragging

Postby CS70 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:29 pm

ef37a wrote:However, do I need to defrag these days?
Dave.

Given that spinning disks still spin and write data wherever it's quickest to do, yes you do :)
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Re: De fragging

Postby Martin Walker » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:27 pm

Pete Kaine wrote:The Windows 10 one works, it just seems to take a few days to do anything. As such, Defraggler is still my choice personally for spinners.

Yep, me too - Piriform's Defraggler is the business 8-)


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Re: De fragging

Postby Folderol » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:15 pm

I'm actually astonished that this is still a thing!

I would have expected it to have been sorted years ago. None of the unix-based OSs do it (although I suppose it's always possible Apple bucked the trend) and even tiny RISC-OS had the problem resolved during the 1990s.

With gigabyte capacity drives having seek times down to 1mS, and 4kB sectors it's verging on insanity!
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Re: De fragging

Postby BJG145 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 pm

Folderol wrote:I'm actually astonished that this is still a thing!

Instead of placing multiple files near each other on the hard disk, Linux file systems scatter different files all over the disk, leaving a large amount of free space between them.

Oh, is that right? Makes sense.

(Meanwhile...yep. Defraggler.)
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Re: De fragging

Postby ef37a » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:36 pm

Thanks all.
Pete, yes, defraggler works fine but I have one spare drive that it says is 86% fragmented but after several hours has not improved. I can still read the files on it so it is not a bother.

Another IDE drive is said to be corrupted and I shall try the freezer stunt. I did this with a USB spinner a few years ago and it gave me about a 20minute window to grab stuff.

Will: You have lost me!

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Re: De fragging

Postby Folderol » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 am

@Dave
Many moons ago I did some low-level work on floppy drives, then studied hard drives a bit. I won't go into details unless people really are interested - besides, my knowledge is probably quite out of date now.

Everyone else dumped the old way of doing things a long time ago, so I'm genuinely shocked that apparently Microsoft hasn't. I can only guess that it's some sort of backward compatibility thing. What BJG145 mentioned is only half the story.
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Re: De fragging

Postby ef37a » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:42 am

Folderol wrote:@Dave
Many moons ago I did some low-level work on floppy drives, then studied hard drives a bit. I won't go into details unless people really are interested - besides, my knowledge is probably quite out of date now.

Everyone else dumped the old way of doing things a long time ago, so I'm genuinely shocked that apparently Microsoft hasn't. I can only guess that it's some sort of backward compatibility thing. What BJG145 mentioned is only half the story.

Ah! I have a dim recollection that macs don't defrag? Must be pros and cons?

If I might venture a VERY crude analogy? I guess the argument is between putting 'the tools back' in their allotted place EVERYTIME as you work against just chucking them down and tidying up later when you have time?

Just an observation? I have NEVER seen a tidy electronics tech! His WORK might be immaculate but the bench? Wheeeeee!

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Re: De fragging

Postby The Korff » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:03 am

ef37a wrote:Ah! I have a dim recollection that macs don't defrag?

They did, they just wouldn't tell you about it! I think it was part of some general self-maintenance routine they would perform when you weren't looking.

I don't think new Macs are sold with spinners nowadays. Not sure where that would leave an old HDD-equipped Mac running on a new OS, mind you... There are still plenty of platter drives around so I'm guessing newer OS X versions still have that functionality.
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Re: De fragging

Postby CS70 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:32 am

Folderol wrote:I'm actually astonished that this is still a thing!

I would have expected it to have been sorted years ago. None of the unix-based OSs do it (although I suppose it's always possible Apple bucked the trend) and even tiny RISC-OS had the problem resolved during the 1990s.

With gigabyte capacity drives having seek times down to 1mS, and 4kB sectors it's verging on insanity!

Tough to sort out the laws of physics. :-)

Unixes defragment as much as anyone else when the disk technology and space usage require it, what makes you think they don't? They simply defragment all the time as necessary, rather than leaving the job to a periodic action as necessary.

The catch is that you lose a little performance all the time, and in busy disks depending on conditions, one strategy may or may not be more effective than the other.

Don't get why everything has to be in "mine's bigger than yours" these days. Is it fandom?
When doing stuff seriously, people find different solutions to the same technical problem, each with its pro and cons. It's the same for VCA and optical compressors as for file systems..
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Re: De fragging

Postby BJG145 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:18 am

OK you've done it now...here comes the science bit... ;)
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Re: De fragging

Postby Folderol » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:25 pm

Although I make no secret of my OS of choice, I don't generally make a fuss about it. I'm quite cool with the fact people have different preferences, so I regard that dig with some amusement.

However, I was surprised to see this thread appear, but at first thought it was referring to legacy systems. I was astonished to see it wasn't.

The point is that In RISC-OS and Linux in particular, your drive has to be about 70% full full before any fragmentation takes place at all (in which case you should probably already be thinking of getting a bigger one).

Yes, it will then shuffle files to make space, but only the amount necessary to fit the new material in. I've been using both of these OSs (starting with the Acorn Archimedes) since the late 1980s. In that time I have never had to defrag a drive, and I've never seen any perceptible loss of performance over time.

An actual defrag is a risky operation, and these days there is a much simpler, safer (and faster) solution. Copy all the data to another drive. Delete it from the original and copy it back. All file systems can handle that, only some will do so more intelligently than others. An extra benefit is that you now have a backup copy.

P.S.
I trust everyone does keep their data and programs in separate drives (or at least, partitions).
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Re: De fragging

Postby wireman » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:42 pm

CS70 wrote:Unixes defragment as much as anyone else when the disk technology and space usage require it, what makes you think they don't? They simply defragment all the time as necessary, rather than leaving the job to a periodic action as necessary.

Please explain this in more detail.
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Re: De fragging

Postby ef37a » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:31 pm

It IS a 'legacy' system Will!

My old HP CQ5304UK tower AMD ll 2core 2.7G . I have put the fernackerpan W10 on it for some experience. (B awful, can't get Edge to store my email home page!) .

I was just looking at some old drives that I have saved over the years. Some are IED and I bought an SATA converter from'Zon, works well. I looked into de fragging and then wondered if people still did it with spinners? As we NO LONGER GET! dedicated Windows and mac pages in the magazine such matters are not discussed. (you WOULD think, with all the gibberings around W10 we would get a 'one stop shop' where all the diverse information could be gathered but Nooooooo!)

But I digress. The C drive in the PC is 57% full and so by your lights it does not need dfrggn ? It has 140G free and since this is a testbed machine it will never fill up much more, in fact I shall be dumping quite a bit of stuff over to sticks.

Oh! BTW, Edge did at least open the waveform link.

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Re: De fragging

Postby BJG145 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:36 pm

Folderol wrote:I was surprised to see this thread appear, but at first thought it was referring to legacy systems. I was astonished to see it wasn't.

But Folderol, if you're not aware of the need to defrag Windows 10, you're clearly out of touch with the current state of technology. I think you owe it to yourself to put Linux aside for a lengthy period while you reappraise the situation. :D

ef37a wrote:I was just looking at some old drives that I have saved over the years. Some are IED

You want to be careful with those.
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Re: De fragging

Postby ef37a » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:42 pm

BJG145 wrote:
Folderol wrote:I was surprised to see this thread appear, but at first thought it was referring to legacy systems. I was astonished to see it wasn't.

But Folderol, if you're not aware of the need to defrag Windows 10, you're clearly out of touch with the current state of technology. I think you owe it to yourself to put Linux aside for a lengthy period while you reappraise the situation. :D

ef37a wrote:I was just looking at some old drives that I have saved over the years. Some are IED.

You want to be careful with those.
Hah! Dangerous typo! But yes! Folderol SHOULD get on the W10 donkey then he can help me!

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Re: De fragging

Postby Pete Kaine » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:36 am

BJG145 wrote:
ef37a wrote:I was just looking at some old drives that I have saved over the years. Some are IED

You want to be careful with those.

You certainly don't want to try getting on a plane with one.
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