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Windows 7's impending death

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Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:17 pm
by scw
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable..

That's what I feared James. The thought of reinstalling everything is daunting.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:19 pm
by CS70
James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

True, the challenge is that a proper real time OS requires not only a quite different architecture, but also acceptance by the user that the specific result that he gets depends on the moment in time when he gets it. While this is the norm with analog systems, we are trained to think that digital system produce always the same result for the same computation.

Given all the fuss for small stuff like automatic updates and polite notifications of end of life, I suspect this second part is the major hindrance to anybody who would want to sell a RTOS.. :D

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:20 pm
by scw
OneWorld wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable. I've used an ancient MOTU MIDI interface on Windows 10 with no problems but haven't tried my M-Audio 2x2 midi interface.

ironically I had an old Steinberg Midex 8x8 and it's spot on!
That's interesting . I think I have an old Midex lying around. I could never get it to work well with W7!

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:20 pm
by CS70
scw wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable..

That's what I feared James. The thought of reinstalling everything is daunting.

I would give it a try. I did upgrade my old laptop back in the time and everything went pretty smoothly - it got used until recently for location recording.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:23 pm
by scw
Thanks for that, I think I'll give the upgrade a go and if it fails I'll rethink the whole clean install vs offline Win7 reinstall from image !!

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:22 am
by ef37a
James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

"Once apon a time, long ago the Great Fathers of audio/music electronics came together for a pow-wow and LO! MIDI was born!
I have no idea how possible this is but IF the big boys in the music industry, RME, Focusrite, Roland etc and said, "**** you Ms and Apple! We are going to develop a proper, musicically oriented OS". Could it be done?

Dave.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:26 am
by tonemangler
James Perrett wrote:To the OP - don't be too scared of Windows 10. It is a much smaller jump from Windows 7 to Windows 10 than it was from Windows XP to Windows 7. If you really don't want to make the jump then you could always get a cheap Windows 10 computer for internet browsing and carry on using the Windows 7 machine for music disconnected from the Internet.

Actually, my laptop is the one I am referring to, which is used mainly for banking and other net stuff. I am building a new studio PC so I will have to go the Win 10 route for that. The thing I'm most concerned about are the Win updates, which I've heard can wreak havoc. I'm building a system with the intention of using a thunderbolt AI (Clarett 4Pre) and I've heard stories of Win 10 updates giving problems with the thunderbolt connection. I'll have to do research on optimizing a Win 10 PC with regards to the updates, there must be a way to mitigate the damage. Actually I recently read an article detailing how Microsoft is planning to change the way they handle updates, if after a new update installs and the OS detects conflicts or hardware issues then it will automatically revert to the previous update, at least that is how I understood the article.

To be honest, I prefer having my studio PC connected to the internet. Back in my WinXP days I used an offline system and it was tedious downloading and authorizing software from one computer to another, once I came online it made the task so much easier! Of course if I ever decide to never buy new software (not likely) the offline method would be the best! :thumbup:

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:35 am
by Mixedup
Wonder if the NHS have moved on from XP since that cyber attack... I bet they went for 7 :headbang: :beamup:

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:48 am
by Watchmaker
James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

Fair point. I'd much rather see developer time go to IO improvements that than to yet another game or instant communication with grandma widget but its a tiny minority who prefer quality in the electrical/software engineering over social engineering in their computing experience. also as CS70 notes, the architecture issues are a problem as the path chosen has a massive amount of commitment behind it. I think speculative execution is a prime example of the law of unintended negative consequences.

Dave's comment about music industry designers coming up with an OS - it's always possible but the adoption rate would probably be too low to support development and you'd have to work with hardware teams to build out a supporting chipset.

Until the next disruptive iteration we're stuck with the existing paradigm...perhaps?

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:33 pm
by blinddrew
scw wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable..

That's what I feared James. The thought of reinstalling everything is daunting.
I went the upgrade route on my desktop and laptop and the only hitch was having to use another installation license for my focusrite software - something that has persisted with every major OS update since. Fortunately focusrite have been completely cool about it and just re-zero'd my account whenever I've hit a buffer. Generally in less than 24 hours as well. :thumbup:

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:20 am
by scw
Thanks for the reassurance Drew! :thumbup:

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:04 pm
by OneWorld
Mixedup wrote:Wonder if the NHS have moved on from XP since that cyber attack... I bet they went for 7 :headbang: :beamup:

I cannot claim this is a global, but during my time in the public sector - a lot of IT experts were hired not because of their IT knowledge but whether they could quote from Das Kaptital and prove their allegiance to political correctitude.

I went through a full 30 minutes interview where I was interrogated on my knowledge of diversity, my soft skills, problem solving (eg there's a fire what do I do, a) tell everyone to log off, collect their belongings etc, b) phone their family to tell them they love them c) blame the tories) and I had to do a presentation on any subject I liked but not my IT skills as the interviewers were HR people and not IT people.

During the whole interview I was not asked one single question about my IT knowledge/skills apart from "Are you familiar with MS Office?" although my main responsibility was coding. I was told don't bother, the interviewers don't have a clue regarding coding.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:08 pm
by OneWorld
scw wrote:
OneWorld wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable. I've used an ancient MOTU MIDI interface on Windows 10 with no problems but haven't tried my M-Audio 2x2 midi interface.

ironically I had an old Steinberg Midex 8x8 and it's spot on!
That's interesting . I think I have an old Midex lying around. I could never get it to work well with W7!

Did you download the latest driver - it is not a WIn10 driver from the Steinberg site, but if memory serves me right it is Win7/64, it is some years since I downloaded and installed, haven't needed to look at it since it was installed - it just worked. Only a tiny file, has its own installer and goes on with a minute or so.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:28 pm
by Matt Houghton
OneWorld wrote:
Mixedup wrote:Wonder if the NHS have moved on from XP since that cyber attack... I bet they went for 7 :headbang: :beamup:

I cannot claim this is a global, but during my time in the public sector - a lot of IT experts were hired not because of their IT knowledge but whether they could quote from Das Kaptital and prove their allegiance to political correctitude.

I went through a full 30 minutes interview where I was interrogated on my knowledge of diversity, my soft skills, problem solving (eg there's a fire what do I do, a) tell everyone to log off, collect their belongings etc, b) phone their family to tell them they love them c) blame the tories) and I had to do a presentation on any subject I liked but not my IT skills as the interviewers were HR people and not IT people.

During the whole interview I was not asked one single question about my IT knowledge/skills apart from "Are you familiar with MS Office?" although my main responsibility was coding. I was told don't bother, the interviewers don't have a clue regarding coding.

That's funny... during *my* time in the public sector I encountered an awful lot of IT professionals who clearly had no idea about diversity or 'soft skills'; if what you say is true, I can only conclude that successful applicants were drawn out of a hat :lol:

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:32 pm
by CS70
Matt Houghton wrote:That's funny... during *my* time in the public sector I encountered an awful lot of IT professionals who clearly had no idea about diversity or 'soft skills'; if what you say is true, I can only conclude that successful applicants were drawn out of a hat :lol:

Indeed, and very often nowadays there's separate interview stages for checking different types of skills.

That said, the very idea of "interview" is very overrated. Tests are much better predictors of actual performance (can't be bothered with sources but there's a host of very good ones a google search away). But of course it goes the idea that a single person can magically understand another one in half an hour or so.. :D

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:55 pm
by ef37a
The revelation that interviews in gvmt posts are done by HR personell and do not include tests by the person's peers is frightening and perhaps is an answer as to why the country is run by 'king idiots?

In my service career I have been quizzed intenesly about circuit operations and had to sit a written exam for Rumbelows! (serves me right) . I have also been asked on several occasions to put faults on pieces of equipment for the candidate to attempt to find. (ever tried to "blow up" a 2W MF resistor so it don't show? Tricky!)

Dave.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:08 pm
by The Elf
scw wrote:I've put off changing my DAW PC to W10 for fear of running into problems with the DAW and the other installed software like NI Komplete etc. I've got so much stuff on it that I couldn't face a disaster.
I've upgraded multiple PCs, audio and otherwise, to Win10. No problems to speak of, beyond having to download a few newer drivers.

Don't do ANYTHING until you have a reliable (i.e. check it!) image copy of your system drive!

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:37 pm
by OneWorld
ef37a wrote:The revelation that interviews in gvmt posts are done by HR personell and do not include tests by the person's peers is frightening and perhaps is an answer as to why the country is run by 'king idiots?

In my service career I have been quizzed intenesly about circuit operations and had to sit a written exam for Rumbelows! (serves me right) . I have also been asked on several occasions to put faults on pieces of equipment for the candidate to attempt to find. (ever tried to "blow up" a 2W MF resistor so it don't show? Tricky!)

Dave.

The name Diane Flabbot springs to mind -

"now how much will 30,000 extra police officers cost?"

"Erm, .......erm.........erm.........£300,000"

"Sure about that? You're going to pay them £10.00 each?"

"Erm no....erm.....erm.....erm........£5,000,000.....yep"

"Sure?

"Erm.......erm.......erm......."£10,000,000"

"You don't know do you?"

"Erm.......erm......erm.....well of course I don't have the exact figures in front of me yet"

Classic! The gift that keeps on giving.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:39 pm
by OneWorld
The Elf wrote:
Don't do ANYTHING until you have a reliable (i.e. check it!) image copy of your system drive!

That's for sure - measure twice cut once!

Re: Windows 7's impending death

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:33 am
by scw
The Elf wrote:Don't do ANYTHING until you have a reliable (i.e. check it!) image copy of your system drive!
Top advice Elf!
Glad to hear that you had no issues.

Stewart