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Windows 7's impending death

For anything relating to music-making on Windows computers, with lots of FAQs. Moderated by Martin Walker.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby ef37a » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:51 am

HUGE PC numpty asking here!
How do you check an image please? I have done them for my PCs (onto external drives) but if I ran one and it did not work am I not stuffed?

Dave.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby The Elf » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:06 am

Some backup software has a 'verify' feature, but I wouldn't trust that explicitly. Recover to a different drive and see if that works.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Matt Houghton » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:14 am

ef37a wrote:The revelation that interviews in gvmt posts are done by HR personell and do not include tests by the person's peers is frightening...

It's also untrue. HR professionals are there to ensure due process is carried out. Eg to guard against nepotism and to ensure that it's possible to get certain jobs without having been educated in certain schools/universtities, or belonging to specific gentlemen's clubs. They are not the ones making the decisions on the hiring and firing. Typically there'd be a panel including either a line manager and or a more senior manager. Depending on the type of job in question there'd also be tests. At least, that was my experience of the NHS, DH and Cabinet Office... though that's at least a decade and a half ago now.

Anyway, we digress...
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby ef37a » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:00 am

Matt Houghton wrote:
ef37a wrote:The revelation that interviews in gvmt posts are done by HR personell and do not include tests by the person's peers is frightening...

It's also untrue. HR professionals are there to ensure due process is carried out. Eg to guard against nepotism and to ensure that it's possible to get certain jobs without having been educated in certain schools/universtities, or belonging to specific gentlemen's clubs. They are not the ones making the decisions on the hiring and firing. Typically there'd be a panel including either a line manager and or a more senior manager. Depending on the type of job in question there'd also be tests. At least, that was my experience of the NHS, DH and Cabinet Office... though that's at least a decade and a half ago now.

Anyway, we digress...

Ok Matt but, I am sure it happens incredibly rarely in practice but we do hear of cases of people getting quite senior medical posts in hospitals without qualifications?

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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Mike Stranks » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:27 am

ef37a wrote:
Matt Houghton wrote:
ef37a wrote:The revelation that interviews in gvmt posts are done by HR personell and do not include tests by the person's peers is frightening...

It's also untrue. HR professionals are there to ensure due process is carried out. Eg to guard against nepotism and to ensure that it's possible to get certain jobs without having been educated in certain schools/universtities, or belonging to specific gentlemen's clubs. They are not the ones making the decisions on the hiring and firing. Typically there'd be a panel including either a line manager and or a more senior manager. Depending on the type of job in question there'd also be tests. At least, that was my experience of the NHS, DH and Cabinet Office... though that's at least a decade and a half ago now.

Anyway, we digress...

Ok Matt but, I am sure it happens incredibly rarely in practice but we do hear of cases of people getting quite senior medical posts in hospitals without qualifications?

Dave.

Point one: I have been part of numerous interview panels in both the NHS and other government departments - and in commercial companies. On each occasion the presence of an HR person was to ensure fair-play as Matt has described. For technical posts there were usually practical tests to ensure competence - eg 'fix this broken computer.' Later in my NHS career I was asked to travel to different parts of the country to be a member of interview panels to ensure that there was a genuine disinterested person present who didn't know anyone - including any of my fellow-interviewers.

Point two: I and colleagues were stunned when we discovered that a colleague who'd successfully been promoted to another job in another part of the country had lied about qualifications and had forged documents to boost his profile. When he was discovered after about a year it was instant dismissal and a significant jail term. This was a non-medical post. Yes; some people do slip through, but given the number of people employed it is a very very small percentage.

Anecdote is not normative.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Watchmaker » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:32 am

Matt Houghton wrote:
ef37a wrote:...to ensure that it's possible to get certain jobs without having been educated in certain schools/universtities, or belonging to specific gentlemen's clubs....

I am now working at one of America's "Ivy League" Schools and I'm pretty sure HR is there to make sure that you DO "belong." Or rather, that you exhibit a set of cultural markers acceptable to the group psychology. I've long believed interviews are merely personality tests designed to see whether you're "a good fit," rather than competent. I also worked for the co-founder of MS, Paul Allen, and that culture was errr, ahhh...ummm, interesting.

I believe the vast majority of the crapification of computing devices is directly due to entrenched narcissism supported by vast seas of sycophancy and an inexplicable allegiance to hierarchy. Given that organizational culture has a huge impact on the quality of production, it's no wonder that the organizations most prone to hagiographic cults of personality are the ones with the worst products.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Mike Stranks » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:41 am

Watchmaker wrote:
I believe the vast majority of the crapification of computing devices is directly due to entrenched narcissism supported by vast seas of sycophancy and an inexplicable allegiance to hierarchy. Given that organizational culture has a huge impact on the quality of production, it's no wonder that the organizations most prone to hagiographic cults of personality are the ones with the worst products.

Eh?
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby OneWorld » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:38 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:
I believe the vast majority of the crapification of computing devices is directly due to entrenched narcissism supported by vast seas of sycophancy and an inexplicable allegiance to hierarchy. Given that organizational culture has a huge impact on the quality of production, it's no wonder that the organizations most prone to hagiographic cults of personality are the ones with the worst products.

Eh?

Looks like HR talk to me!
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby OneWorld » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:40 pm

ef37a wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

"Once apon a time, long ago the Great Fathers of audio/music electronics came together for a pow-wow and LO! MIDI was born!
I have no idea how possible this is but IF the big boys in the music industry, RME, Focusrite, Roland etc and said, "**** you Ms and Apple! We are going to develop a proper, musicically oriented OS". Could it be done?

Dave.

What became of BEOS, the answer to the media industry's prayers :-)
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Watchmaker » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:04 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:
Eh?

I mean too much ass kissing by middle management to get anything worthwhile done.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:08 pm

Oh well, had to happen one day. Back to a duel boot system again. I'll be keeping my win7 system and all the hardware and software and drivers that depend on it up and running for a good while longer, it just all works so well together and sounds so bloomin' good that to dump it now would break my heart... and my bank balance.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby OneWorld » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:20 pm

I suppose in a way, an OS, Win7 in this case, being abandoned can be a blessing in disguise. On the final day, the day the umbilical is cut, you can update the OS/computer, sever your connection to the internet, lock down the OS and never be bothered by updates again.

That being said I don't think that would suit an ITB setup as software manufacturers nudge us towards later OS's - but if more reliant on hardware, out the box, or if happy with the installed apps, then why bother updating
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:05 am

The balance seems to have shifted in favor of those who are blinded by profit, power and glory. No sooner are we happy and have a working system up and running but the unsettling pressure is on us to update...yet again! (((WARNING Security Updates Are Being SUSPENDED. You are now VULNERABLE to VIRUS'S and MALARIOUS CYDER ATTACKS. You must UPDATE NOW or your BALLS will DROP OFF and you will surely DIE))) Ultimately they just want to own us... "Your mine now".
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby CS70 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:31 pm

envamt wrote:The balance seems to have shifted in favor of those who are blinded by profit, power and glory. No sooner are we happy and have a working system up and running but the unsettling pressure is on us to update...yet again! (((WARNING Security Updates Are Being SUSPENDED. You are now VULNERABLE to VIRUS'S and MALARIOUS CYDER ATTACKS. You must UPDATE NOW or your BALLS will DROP OFF and you will surely DIE))) Ultimately they just want to own us... "Your mine now".

Hm. The "working system" is very complex, and bugs and attack doors are discovered, and should be closed. What's that to do with profit and power?

Glory, yes. In general engineers are like musicians - they do new stuff because it's fun, and after a while the new stuff oftentimes becomes useful.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Guest » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:42 pm

Win7 off-line is just fine, safe and stable. Cubase 10 etc. and all the plugs, soundcards etc. all work just great. Lets face it for making first class recordings most of us have all we need for years to come. Microsoft are a powerful company that maximizes its profits, if it didn't they would go bust. The hype tells us we need to move on and update, ok fair enough for those with big wallets.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Watchmaker » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:23 pm

can't both be true?

My experience is that many IT development projects suffer form numerous changes, scope changes, new PM's every three months, new VPs every two. New tools to confuse, fewer tools to provide clarity. budget cuts. All of these are symptoms of a "leadership class" that neither grasps, nor deigns to grasp, an adequate understanding of operational considerations. Making money takes walking the beat and positioning a company in the market. This activity is unhealthy for humans individually and collectively. * edit: "frequently. Sometimes it's awesome, like SOS!"

That said, there are many extremely smart, if perhaps emotionally damaged, people programming moar and moar amazing code daily. Witness the amazing toys at my disposal for really an incredibly small price for honest to god magic.

Programs however, suffer the ignorance of creation and when put into the big bad world of, well..the world: challenges begin. From the rapacious and conscienceless beings elected in the US, UK , Germany and elsewhere, we get things like the NSA which hires the best, most amoral people to figure out how to break into everything. Legions follow.

Just to say an OS isn't simple an I/O routing device with a pretty voice, it also has to consider malicious actors. One can get rich off malicious actors. I did as a CISA for the last 7 years :lol:
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby CS70 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:42 am

Watchmaker wrote:My experience is that many IT development projects suffer form numerous changes, scope changes, new PM's every three months, new VPs every two. New tools to confuse, fewer tools to provide clarity. budget cuts. All of these are symptoms of a "leadership class" that neither grasps, nor deigns to grasp, an adequate understanding of operational considerations. Making money takes walking the beat and positioning a company in the market. This activity is unhealthy for humans individually and collectively. * edit: "frequently. Sometimes it's awesome, like SOS!"


Agreed, but as the guy said, never confuse malice with stupidity.

You average IT project is as complex as a very large building, and imagine using new tools and materials every couple of years while at the same time building in ever more inaccessible places. An O/S is more like a town.

We just have no idea on how to build these things error-free, but we want ever more from them.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Agharta » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:18 am

I blame Apple indirectly for the malaise at Microsoft! :shock:
With the success of iOS devices and the failure of MS (and Intel) to compete on new fronts MS panicked.
Look at the initial release of Windows 8.0 and tell me that wasn't produced by a company that was confused and lost.
It was a mid life crisis of an operating system.
They did sober up and put the Hawaiian shirts away and got back on track for a while.
W8.1 was a solid O/S which I prefer to Win7 easily.
Then with W10 they lost the plot again and kept moving the goal posts which is not what you want with an O/S that is used by 100s of millions as a productivity tool.
I felt forced to use W10 when building a new desktop last year even though I had a W8.1 license because MS changed their long term support plans.
That meant if you were building a PC with new hardware only W10 gave you long term support even though W8.1 is supported until January 2023.
So W8.x is the new Vista and has been locked in the basement like a troubled child.
It's a shame as 8.1 is a good half way house between 7 and 10.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Guest » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:05 am

If it was just about Win7 being discontinued and folks updating to a new OS then lovely but basically I don't trust Win10 not to spy on me, sensor my searches or profile me for adverts. That now goes for anything on-line. With the EU's un elected voting in Article 11 and 13 the other day the balance has shifted towards closing down certain types of free speech that they deem unsuitable. Theres so much more for the on-line musician to think of these days than just an OS, a DAW and some plugs-ins. Soon our DAW or certain plug-ins will need to be connected on-line all the time, they will monitor what were up to and our info sold to reduce the cost to us of there software. Do we have to be on-line for Roland Cloud plugs to work? Not sure.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Watchmaker » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:24 pm

CS70 wrote:Agreed, but as the guy said, never confuse malice with stupidity.

You average IT project is as complex as a very large building, and imagine using new tools and materials every couple of years while at the same time building in ever more inaccessible places. An O/S is more like a town.

We just have no idea on how to build these things error-free, but we want ever more from them.

I love this reply. Indeed, as Donald Rumsfield so astutely noted, there are unknown uknowns... and there's the rub.

A question: If both malice and ignorance lead to undesirable outcomes, which is the greater curse? Personally I see them as largely indistinguishable, especially as stupidity is most often a (semi) voluntary condition.
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