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Windows 10 Graphics Card

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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby Pete Kaine » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:07 pm

BillPhillips wrote:With the RX 580, so far I can mix with the sample buffer at 64 samples with very infrequent popping and crackling usually after starting playback or looping or making a change. So the increased GPU processing power appears to make a big difference probably because iZotope uses OpenGL.

It's good to hear you've seen the improvement and thank you for the feedback, I'm never quite sure when dealing with Open GL spottiness as you never quite expect it with audio systems. As you've also experienced companies rarely offer it up as a reason unless you're rather specific in your fault reports, so there can be much head scratching until the confirmation rolls in! Happy to note this one for future troubleshooting through.

BillPhillips wrote:There are however some new issues:

(1) The card fills up two slots and is touching the cards on either side.

I would have said that you could have gotten away with a less powerful card than that, but given current range pricing now I doubt going lower would have saved you all that much in comparison to the performance lost. Even the 550 range appear to be dual slot these days, so options there would have been limited to get around this issue.

So, when you say it touches, are you talking about the cooler against the rear of the card next to it? Are you completely out of slots otherwise? Could the card next to it be shuffled anywhere else?

The fact you're still stuttering at this point would seem to indicate that you may have had multiple issues going in. Probably worth rerunning Latency monitor and seeing if anything owns up to those remaining crackles.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby Johnsy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:41 pm

Hi Bill,

You appear to be running Latencymon in the default "'Interrupt to user process latency" mode, which means you should NOT be running Cakewalk at the same time (LMon is running as a proxy driver/audio app in this mode, so running CbB too is equivalent to running two DAWs at once).

In this mode (which IS the best), you need to close all other programs before running LMon.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby BillPhillips » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:Thank you for the nice feedback Bill. Be in no doubt that Pete is the expert on current PC tech here, I'm a developer who works 'at a lower level' so to speak so I can fill in some context, but I'm happy to hear you found the info useful.

Pete is definitely the PC expert! His analysis and advice is invaluable. Your contributions on Windows pagefile management were also very useful.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby BillPhillips » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:58 pm

Pete Kaine wrote: As you've also experienced companies rarely offer it up as a reason unless you're rather specific in your fault reports, so there can be much head scratching until the confirmation rolls in!

Yes, iZotope did not volunteer that they are using OpenGL when I initially asked about GPU capacity impacts. Your analysis eliminated a lot of head scratching for me. Once, based on your comments, I asked specifically about OpenGL, they fessed up and admitted it. This surprises me. I'd think that, for PC users who have a whole universe of components to pick from, software manufacturers would offer up guidance on GPU performance, though their minimum system requirements aren't very helpful either.

Pete Kaine wrote:I would have said that you could have gotten away with a less powerful card than that, but given current range pricing now I doubt going lower would have saved you all that much in comparison to the performance lost. Even the 550 range appear to be dual slot these days, so options there would have been limited to get around this issue.

I agree. I looked for a single slot card. My case can handle longer workstation cards. However, the single slot workstation cards I found that had processing power similar to the ASROCK card cost at least 3 times what the ASROCK card cost. I made lots of measurements and convinced that the ASROCK card would fit, and it does just barely.

Pete Kaine wrote:So, when you say it touches, are you talking about the cooler against the rear of the card next to it? Are you completely out of slots otherwise? Could the card next to it be shuffled anywhere else?

The plastic cooler shroud on the bottom of the ASROCK video card touches the backside of the 2-port firewire card that doesn't work. The front fan doesn't touch. It seems ok.

On the top side, the S/PDIF connector for the S/PDIF output card in slot 1 of my case rubs on the back of the ASROCK card. The connector seems to not be overly stressed and the S/PDIF output works.

I have one open slot. So when I purchase a 3-port firewire card as you suggested, I may move it to that open slot and move the S/PDIF card below the video card which would leave a little space around it.

Pete Kaine wrote:The fact you're still stuttering at this point would seem to indicate that you may have had multiple issues going in. Probably worth rerunning Latency monitor and seeing if anything owns up to those remaining crackles.

I'll do that. Thanks. But, I'm pretty happy with the results so far. On initial testing with my very small project, I didn't hear any crackling once I set buffer size to 256 samples which is a huge improvement over very distracting crackling at 1024 samples with the old video card.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby BillPhillips » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:10 pm

Johnsy wrote: You appear to be running Latencymon in the default "'Interrupt to user process latency" mode, which means you should NOT be running Cakewalk at the same time (LMon is running as a proxy driver/audio app in this mode, so running CbB too is equivalent to running two DAWs at once).

In this mode (which IS the best), you need to close all other programs before running LMon.

Thanks. Is there another mode I should use? My understanding is that I need to have Latencymon running with a project playing back in Cakewalk by Bandlab (CbB) under mixing conditions to measure system performance in use. Focusrite tech support suggested that I run both together for at least 4 minutes to obtain usfull information.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby Johnsy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:53 am

Here's what the LMon docs say:

The method of measuring latencies that used a kernel timer that was used in previous versions is still available as an optional feature. However since Windows 8 comes with a new power saving feature called dynamic clock tick as well as a new algorithm for deciding when kernel timer events should actually fire, this method of measuring is no longer practical or useful on Windows 8 and later operating systems.

Note: it is recommended to close all other running programs before running the interrupt to user process latency test, or before interpreting the value that it reports. This test simulates the workings of a real-time audio process. Unlike other tests that LatencyMon performs, it does not make sense to run this test while an audio program is active.


That aside, three things stand out:

1) The large number of hard page faults reported for CbB itself. For comparison, two five-minute runs of LMon whilst playing a project in Reaper here produced zero page faults (for the application).

2) msmpeng.exe (Windows Defender) - likewise, during my two LMon runs, zero page faults. Googling reveals that other people have had trouble with this process too.

3) Onboard audio appears to be busy (HDAudioBus.sys). This one's easy to check by disabling OB audio in Device Manager, so you might want to start there.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby BillPhillips » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:37 am

Johnsy, thank you for taking the time to analyze LegancyMon data I posted. I'll use that in further tuning my PC for Cakewalk by Bandlab (CbB) use as I get better aquainted with performance with the new graphics card. Initial testing indicates the new graphics card seems to have rendered CbB useable for the mixing setup I'm using. So, I want to mix with it to learn how well it actually performs in use.

Until now while reading your response I'd not opened the LatencyMon Options or Help tabs. Now that I have I plan to read more. Thanks again.

Johnsy wrote:Here's what the LMon docs say:

The method of measuring latencies that used a kernel timer that was used in previous versions is still available as an optional feature. However since Windows 8 comes with a new power saving feature called dynamic clock tick as well as a new algorithm for deciding when kernel timer events should actually fire, this method of measuring is no longer practical or useful on Windows 8 and later operating systems.

Note: it is recommended to close all other running programs before running the interrupt to user process latency test, or before interpreting the value that it reports. This test simulates the workings of a real-time audio process. Unlike other tests that LatencyMon performs, it does not make sense to run this test while an audio program is active.

Where can I find the text in italics above to read more? I looked under the Option and Help tabs and couldn't find it. Also I wonder if the advice I'd received to run LatencyMon while CbB was running was based on using LatencyMon in the no longer recommended kernel timer mode?
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby Johnsy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:05 pm

Where can I find the text in italics above to read more? I looked under the Option and Help tabs and couldn't find it.

The "docs" are the website, not part of the app. The source of the section I posted above is here:

https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_interrupt2process

Also I wonder if the advice I'd received to run LatencyMon while CbB was running was based on using LatencyMon in the no longer recommended kernel timer mode?

Could be. Doesn't seem to make sense otherwise. But then, the kernel timer mode no longer makes sense anyway...

EXCEPT for showing hard page faults in the audio app:

https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_faq (six down)
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby Johnsy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:02 pm

Sorry Bill - accidentally cut off start of last sentence but didn't notice until too late to edit. Should have read:

But running in default mode whilst also running a DAW doesn't either, EXCEPT for showing hard page faults in the audio app:

https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_faq (six down)

(And you're certainly seeing plenty of those.)
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby BillPhillips » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:13 pm

Johnsy, thanks again. That clears it up for me. I really appreciate the explanation.
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Re: Windows 10 Graphics Card

Postby Johnsy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:21 pm

My pleasure. Do keep us informed - I for one am very interested in this.

You should be getting much better performance with a rig like that.

And regardless of LMon mode, I really would begin by looking at the three points I listed above.
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