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Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:09 am

USB that is.
When I bought my Lenovo T510 with W10 for internet duties I also bought a 1Tb Seagate USB 3.0 drive. My idea was that even though the T510 came with a rather small 160G SSD that would be fine because I was not seeking to put massive amounts of audio, leave alone video files on it. I could also dump files off to the Seagate as and when, a process I have been doing since December '19.

This morning I decided it was about time I made an image of the T510 on said USB drive...
Bugger! "Cannot copy image to drive. Not an NTFS format". I can do that of course but that means I now have the old HP copying the Seagate files pro tem and it looks like the 103G is going to take well over an hour. (says 4hrs 45mins atmo but that is always porkies isn't it?)

THEN I shall have to copy it all back after I have made the image!

Is there a reason these drives come exFAT formatted instead of NTFS?

Dave.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:43 am

Yes, for OoB x-compat with multiple OSes.

Not sure if MacOS has an officially blessed NTFS driver these days, but people used to rely on an open-source NTFS read-only driver in the past.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:34 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:Yes, for OoB x-compat with multiple OSes.

Not sure if MacOS has an officially blessed NTFS driver these days, but people used to rely on an open-source NTFS read-only driver in the past.

Ok but, AFAICT from googling the only driver that works for a Windows image is NTFS. Macs can read NTFS but only write with a third party app'? Also I assume you get a warning first time you try to write to NTFS? You get no such warning when you connect an exFAT to Windows that you cannot install an image on it.

BTW 103G took 2 hrs ten.

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:24 am

ef37a wrote:
Ok but, AFAICT from googling the only driver that works for a Windows image is NTFS. Macs can read NTFS but only write with a third party app'? Also I assume you get a warning first time you try to write to NTFS? You get no such warning when you connect an exFAT to Windows that you cannot install an image on it.



Dave.

Well, it's a filesystem not a driver - but I take your point.

I presume MacOS would just pop up a message about incompatible filesystem, or some message to inform the user that it doesn't have a filesystem driver . . . can't tell you the specifics as when last I had a Mac I didn't attempt to write to an NTFS volume because I knew OSX (as it was at the time) didn't support writing to NTFS except through a third-party driver that no competent admin would trust for the task.

I can't think of any reason Windows would warn about bootable images upon simply plugging in an exFAT drive.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:28 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
ef37a wrote:
Ok but, AFAICT from googling the only driver that works for a Windows image is NTFS. Macs can read NTFS but only write with a third party app'? Also I assume you get a warning first time you try to write to NTFS? You get no such warning when you connect an exFAT to Windows that you cannot install an image on it.



Dave.

Well, it's a filesystem not a driver - but I take your point.

I presume MacOS would just pop up a message about incompatible filesystem, or some message to inform the user that it doesn't have a filesystem driver . . . can't tell you the specifics as when last I had a Mac I didn't attempt to write to an NTFS volume because I knew OSX (as it was at the time) didn't support writing to NTFS except through a third-party driver that no competent admin would trust for the task.

I can't think of any reason Windows would warn about bootable images upon simply plugging in an exFAT drive.

Not sure if you agree with me or not there? Sometimes when you plug in a flash drive you get a warning. "This device must be formatted". Mostly I don't want that and ignoring that seems to make no difference. I cannot therefore see why Windows could not tell me the drive is not suitable for an image?

Now that I know I shall always change drives to NTFS of course.

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:01 pm

ef37a wrote:I cannot therefore see why Windows could not tell me the drive is not suitable for an image?

An image has to be made using the same disc format structure as the source, and since Windows uses NTFS by default (on the system drive at least), You will need to format the new drive as NTFS first before you can make the image.

However, as NTFS is not compatible with other operating systems (ie, Macs) and the manufacturers want to maximise compatibility out of the box, they pre-format discs and drives with either FAT32 or, more commonly these days, eXFAT.

Both Macs and PCs can read and write data to exFAT drives, so it is the universal format for convenient storage and data transfer.

Macs can read NTFS drives but can't write to them, and although pretty much everything can read-write to FAT32 drives its 4GB file size limit can be a frustration whereas exFAT and NTFS can store much MUCH larger files.

So you can throw huge files on and off an exFAT drive quite happily whether you're using a Mac or a PC without worrying about it... and that suits everyday normal use just fine.

But if you want to make an image of an NTFS drive -- which all Windows system drives are -- you will need to format the image drive to NTFS first!

It's just the way it is!

NOTE: There's no need to format a new drive to NTFS just for storing and transferring files. It's native exFAT format is just fine for everyday use.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:42 pm

Yes Hugh, that is all pretty much what I have found out. My beef is with the lack of any warning from Windows.

The OS, especially ten(!) is always banging on about SOME bloody problem or other! I cited the one about 'formatting', sometimes you get 'not enough power for this device' (not had that for a while though) Why could they not just tell you when you first connect an exFAT drive that it cannot be used for imaging purposes? That way I would not have dumped 103G of files on it!

There is no downside to ME having all my drives NTFS?

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:50 pm

ef37a wrote:Why could they not just tell you when you first connect an exFAT drive that it cannot be used for imaging purposes?

Probably because most people don't want use portable drives for images, and those that do generally know enough about what they're doing to realise the need to reformat to match the host drive!

There is no downside to ME having all my drives NTFS?

None, other than the time needed to re-format the drives (and any removal/replacement of files currently archived on the drives before/after reformatting).
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:09 pm

Why would folks NOT want to put an image on an eternal drive Hugh?

When I started the process W10 defaulted to the C drive and warned that if the destination drive for the image is on the current drive a fault on that drive means the image might no be usable. Seemed very logical to me?

And, I would not have HAD the bother of removing files and putting them back IF I had been told at the first connection!

Anyway, I thought somebody might say "Thanks Dave, did not know that, saved me a shed of work" !!??

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:25 pm

ef37a wrote:Why would folks NOT want to put an image on an eternal drive Hugh?

Yes, of course it's a good idea to make a backup image on an external drive. I just meant most people don't bother to make an image at all, so that's not the reason why most would be buying a drive.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby Agharta » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:41 pm

ef37a wrote:This morning I decided it was about time I made an image of the T510 on said USB drive...
Bugger! "Cannot copy image to drive. Not an NTFS format".

ef37a wrote:Not sure if you agree with me or not there? Sometimes when you plug in a flash drive you get a warning. "This device must be formatted". Mostly I don't want that and ignoring that seems to make no difference. I cannot therefore see why Windows could not tell me the drive is not suitable for an image? Now that I know I shall always change drives to NTFS of course.

You stated in the 1st quote above that it already gave you a message that it couldn’t write an image to an exFAT drive, so at what other stage do you think it should also give you the same message, when you format it?
That’s not a bad idea, giving you the pros and cons of the mainly used file systems when you are formatting.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:55 pm

Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:This morning I decided it was about time I made an image of the T510 on said USB drive...
Bugger! "Cannot copy image to drive. Not an NTFS format".

ef37a wrote:Not sure if you agree with me or not there? Sometimes when you plug in a flash drive you get a warning. "This device must be formatted". Mostly I don't want that and ignoring that seems to make no difference. I cannot therefore see why Windows could not tell me the drive is not suitable for an image? Now that I know I shall always change drives to NTFS of course.

You stated in the 1st quote above that it already gave you a message that it couldn’t write an image to an exFAT drive, so at what other stage do you think it should also give you the same message, when you format it?
That’s not a bad idea, giving you the pros and cons of the mainly used file systems when you are formatting.

I had never formatted the drive. Did not know I had to in order to create an image so I just went blindly on saving data on the drive. It was only when I wanted to create an image that I was told I could not. Had I known that at day 1 when I first plugged the drive in I would have formatted it to NTFS.

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:23 am

Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:This morning I decided it was about time I made an image of the T510 on said USB drive...
Bugger! "Cannot copy image to drive. Not an NTFS format".

ef37a wrote:Not sure if you agree with me or not there? Sometimes when you plug in a flash drive you get a warning. "This device must be formatted". Mostly I don't want that and ignoring that seems to make no difference. I cannot therefore see why Windows could not tell me the drive is not suitable for an image? Now that I know I shall always change drives to NTFS of course.

You stated in the 1st quote above that it already gave you a message that it couldn’t write an image to an exFAT drive, so at what other stage do you think it should also give you the same message, when you format it?
That’s not a bad idea, giving you the pros and cons of the mainly used file systems when you are formatting.

No, that's a terrible idea. Can you imagine the volume of support calls something like that would generate? Product returns?

"What's a filesystem??? What's an image??? What's a filesize limit??? Journalling WTF??? Arrrggggh!! BROKEN!!!"

Windows handled the situation as well as it can be handled, given a vanishingly small percentage of end-users will ever image a system drive.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby Jorge » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:03 am

This thread provided me a useful piece of information. Thank you Dave.
I have bought external drives that come HPS formatted and have been forced to reformat to NTFS before using them for my PC. So I never ran into this problem and learning vicariously from your experience is helpful.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:52 am

Jorge wrote:This thread provided me a useful piece of information. Thank you Dave.
I have bought external drives that come HPS formatted and have been forced to reformat to NTFS before using them for my PC. So I never ran into this problem and learning vicariously from your experience is helpful.

I'm guessing you mean HFS or HFS+ and since those are deprecated Apple / Mac / OSX filesystems yes, you would have to format the drive for use in Windows. Unless you were actually installing a copy of Windows to the drive NTFS would have been a recommendation and not a requirement as, as evidenced by this very thread you can mount other filesystems for storage. Any filesystem for which you have a filesystem driver installed.

Of course, since you were required (not forced) to format the drives as NTFS you would never have encountered the issue to begin with.

Mind you, if this thread educates a few people on the subject that's all to the good.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:08 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
Agharta wrote:
ef37a wrote:This morning I decided it was about time I made an image of the T510 on said USB drive...
Bugger! "Cannot copy image to drive. Not an NTFS format".

ef37a wrote:Not sure if you agree with me or not there? Sometimes when you plug in a flash drive you get a warning. "This device must be formatted". Mostly I don't want that and ignoring that seems to make no difference. I cannot therefore see why Windows could not tell me the drive is not suitable for an image? Now that I know I shall always change drives to NTFS of course.

You stated in the 1st quote above that it already gave you a message that it couldn’t write an image to an exFAT drive, so at what other stage do you think it should also give you the same message, when you format it?
That’s not a bad idea, giving you the pros and cons of the mainly used file systems when you are formatting.

No, that's a terrible idea. Can you imagine the volume of support calls something like that would generate? Product returns?

"What's a filesystem??? What's an image??? What's a filesize limit??? Journalling WTF??? Arrrggggh!! BROKEN!!!"

Windows handled the situation as well as it can be handled, given a vanishingly small percentage of end-users will ever image a system drive.

I could not give a monkey's chuff for the customer complaints to Microsoft! Their software has always thrown out dire warnings and obscure fault codes most of which don't matter a stuff 99.9% of the time and I don't understand 99.99% of the time...and I go back to 98se!

Windows 10 is surely the worst one so far, I have just found out how to stop 'notifications', the black panel bottom right but still get other things popping up.

No, I am after them telling me something ACTUALLY useful!

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:51 am

ef37a wrote:
I could not give a monkey's chuff for the customer complaints to Microsoft! Their software has always thrown out dire warnings and obscure fault codes most of which don't matter a stuff 99.9% of the time and I don't understand 99.99% of the time...and I go back to 98se!

Windows 10 is surely the worst one so far, I have just found out how to stop 'notifications', the black panel bottom right but still get other things popping up.

No, I am after them telling me something ACTUALLY useful!

Dave.

Hmmmm . . . where did I mention the support calls would be directed @ Microsoft? Fewer assumptions would serve you well. Indeed, would have served you well before you embarked on this endeavour to begin with.

I don't know how long you've been running Win 10, but the settings for notifications aren't exactly hidden? Lemme see now . . .

Settings > System (Display, sound, notifications, power). It's literally the first section of the Settings.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby ef37a » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:07 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
ef37a wrote:
I could not give a monkey's chuff for the customer complaints to Microsoft! Their software has always thrown out dire warnings and obscure fault codes most of which don't matter a stuff 99.9% of the time and I don't understand 99.99% of the time...and I go back to 98se!

Windows 10 is surely the worst one so far, I have just found out how to stop 'notifications', the black panel bottom right but still get other things popping up.

No, I am after them telling me something ACTUALLY useful!

Dave.

Hmmmm . . . where did I mention the support calls would be directed @ Microsoft? Fewer assumptions would serve you well. Indeed, would have served you well before you embarked on this endeavour to begin with.

I don't know how long you've been running Win 10, but the settings for notifications aren't exactly hidden? Lemme see now . . .

Settings > System (Display, sound, notifications, power). It's literally the first section of the Settings.

Not really bothered who gets the support calls friend nor who mentioned what to whom.
FYI been using ten for three months on and off but only bought TDThing because I was told to by Ms! I have a perfectly fine W7 laptop but kept getting dire warnings.

And, FCS! I just wanted to give others a bit of a heads up and can do without the attitude.

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Re: Check your drives!

Postby blinddrew » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:40 am

Aaannd let's everybody dial it down a bit please folks.
These places work best when we all assume positive intent.
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Re: Check your drives!

Postby Agharta » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:26 am

Thanks for the heads-up Dave as I realised last night I am in the same boat. :thumbup:
I hadn’t planned on using my latest drive for system images but as it’s my largest one at 5TB it makes sense to be ready if required.
It took me ages to copy 900GB of data to it as the bulk of it are Kontakt libraries so nearly 300K of small files is slow to write to a HDD.
Just glad I haven’t finished copying the 4TB or so that will be going on there so your post has saved me some time.

What would have helped us both is if Windows had given us a notification the first time we manually copied data to the drive about the file system and the implications. That would have been picked up by me immediately assuming I hadn’t dismissed the message out of hand. That might have happened as I have such a low regard for Microsoft and Windows these days.

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
Agharta wrote:You stated in the 1st quote above that it already gave you a message that it couldn’t write an image to an exFAT drive, so at what other stage do you think it should also give you the same message, when you format it?
That’s not a bad idea, giving you the pros and cons of the mainly used file systems when you are formatting.
No, that's a terrible idea. Can you imagine the volume of support calls something like that would generate? Product returns?
"What's a filesystem??? What's an image??? What's a filesize limit??? Journalling WTF??? Arrrggggh!! BROKEN!!!"
Windows handled the situation as well as it can be handled, given a vanishingly small percentage of end-users will ever image a system drive.
You might want to turn down the level on your Hyperbole generator as it appears to be in the red. :crazy:
It would need to be worded in a way that is user friendly and simple and if done properly it would be helpful and not confusing. If anything it could reduce support calls.
The majority of end users don’t format a drive either or know that much about it so no harm in holding their hands a bit.
At the very least it would make people aware of the differences which I can’t see as a bad thing.

ef37a wrote:And, FCS! I just wanted to give others a bit of a heads up and can do without the attitude.
Mission accomplished, thanks again. :angel:
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